Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

On September 1, 2004 the FAA inaugurated a new pilot certificate dubbed the "sport pilot" that makes learning to fly easier and more affordable that ever. Intended primarily for recreational use, you can now become a pilot with as little as 20 hours of flight instruction! In addition, the FAA also created a new category of affordable "light-sport aircraft"!

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Warmi
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby Warmi » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:37 pm

Well, that’s only if you held a valid medical since 2006 ... otherwise you still have to get one before you qualify for Basic Med.
Ultimately, not a big deal since you have to only get it once...
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby drseti » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:48 pm

bryancobb wrote:Now under Basic Med, a Private Pilot with 40 hours can carry passengers without a medical.


Unfortunately, Bryan, that statement is not entirely complete. A Private pilot or above may let his or her medical certificate expire, satisfy the requirements of Basic Med (physical exam, physician-signed form, and online course), and then exercise a host of privileges under Basic Med, in a wide range of aircraft. But, to be allowed to take that initial Private Pilot practical test (checkride), he or she must have at least a valid third class medical certificate. So, you can't use Basic Med to become a PP.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby drseti » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:58 pm

bryancobb wrote:* If you own any LSA, you can be taking your friends and family flying in it as soon as 20 hours logged.


That's quite a misleading statement, Bryan. Logging 20 hours does not qualify one to carry a passenger. Completing all required training and flight experience requrements, getting all required instructor endorsements, passing a knowledge and practical test, and having a Sport Pilot certificate issued, does. One shouldn't suggest or imply that logging 20 hours automatically conveys any privileges.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:18 pm

bryancobb wrote:If you have an FAA Student Pilot's License of any flavor, the FAA would have a hard time saying you are doing something wrong if you are in training under the tutelage of a CFI. Under today's rules, students getting their Private License don't even have to have a 3rd Class medical certificate so they may not have that manila card portion of their medical application that served as THE student pilots license in the old days. It also served as a place for their CFI to sign them off solo. This is where the "you need a medical before you can solo" requirement hit a brick wall unless you had been to the flight surgeon and passed. Nowadays, you can still get a class III if you want to and may still get that manilla student pilots license. However, you don't HAVE TO. The FAA probably has a form for "Basic Med" Private students that is very similar to or even the exact same form that Sport Pilot students fill out to get their Student Pilots License.
In plain language, Private and Sport Pilot students get their Student Pilots Licenses THE SAME WAY unless the Private student WANTS to get a Class III Medical for some unexplainable reason.



Sounds like many of you aren't very well-versed in "Basic Med."

Under Basic Med, any person with a Pilot's license, can fly any aircraft up to 6 occupant capacity, WITHOUT even a 3rd class medical.
They can fly day or night. They can fly VFR or IFR. The plane can weigh up to 6000 pounds and be a piston or turbine. It can have retracts and have a variable pitch "constant speed" prop.

The only restriction is ...YOU CANNOT CHARGE. No Compensation or hire.

This change, plus the change allowing dual instruction from a Sport Pilot CFI to be loggable toward Private and higher licenses, basically means not having a medical really doesn't prohibit any of the flying of most pilots flying for recreation.

I go to my FBO routinely and rent their late-model 172's in spite of the fact that I haven't held a medical OF ANY CLASS in over 10 years. I load up
my family of 3 and go 500 miles or more.

The practical benefits of the Sport Pilot rating THESE DAYS are very very few and are as follows,
* If you own an ultralight-type aircraft that's too heavy for part 103, you may be able to get it N-Numbered and legally fly it as an LSA and log the time and count it toward higher pilots certificates.
* If you own any LSA, you can be taking your friends and family flying in it as soon as 20 hours logged.
* If you are lucky enough to be near an FBO that has an LSA for rent, you may be able to take it flying as soon as 20 hours logged.
* All the perks related to flying with your drivers licence have disappeared for Sport Pilots except for taking passengers between 20 and 40 hours logged. Now under Basic Med, a Private Pilot with 40 hours can carry passengers without a medical.


There is so much mis-information in this post, I wouldn't even know where to begin.
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby ShawnM » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:33 pm

TimTaylor wrote:There is so much mis-information in this post, I wouldn't even know where to begin.


And the scary part is this guy is a CFI.

I’m still wet behind the ears as a sport pilot and I know for sure I can’t take passenger as soon as I log 20 hours. I can’t take passengers until I COMPLETE all my training and a DPE tells me “you are now a licensed pilot”.
Last edited by ShawnM on Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby drseti » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:46 pm

bryancobb wrote: Nowadays, you can still get a class III if you want to and may still get that manilla student pilots license.


That Manila student pilot certificate no longer exists. The student certificate (which no longer expires) is blue plastic. The temporary student pilot certificate (issued by a CFI or DPE) is printed on white paper and is good for 120 days. An AME can still issue a medical certificate, but can no longer issue a studednt pilot certificate.

The FAA probably has a form for "Basic Med" Private students that is very similar to or even the exact same form that Sport Pilot students fill out to get their Student Pilots License.


No, basic med only applies to private or above, not student pilots.

Private and Sport Pilot students get their Student Pilots Licenses THE SAME WAY


That part is true.

unless the Private student WANTS to get a Class III Medical for some unexplainable reason.


But that part isn't true, since to even get Basic Med, you must first have held at least a 3rd class medical certificate.

Under Basic Med, any person with a Pilot's license, can fly any aircraft up to 6 occupant capacity, WITHOUT even a 3rd class medical.
They can fly day or night. They can fly VFR or IFR. The plane can weigh up to 6000 pounds and be a piston or turbine. It can have retracts and have a variable pitch "constant speed" prop.


Almost true. Just not "any person with a pilot's license." You meant any person with a PP or above.

The only restriction is ...YOU CANNOT CHARGE. No Compensation or hire.


A PP cannot charge in any case (with either a medical or Basic Med). Any flight for compensation or hire has always required a commercial certificate or above (with the exception of an FAR 61 Subpart K CFI).

not having a medical really doesn't prohibit any of the flying of most pilots flying for recreation.


That's generally true.

I go to my FBO routinely and rent their late-model 172's in spite of the fact that I haven't held a medical OF ANY CLASS in over 10 years. I load up
my family of 3 and go 500 miles or more.


That's only true if you have Basic Med (which could be argued is just a new class of medical, so technically you DO have medical certification).

The practical benefits of the Sport Pilot rating THESE DAYS are very very few and are as follows,


You left out one important one. SP is a great benefit to those who never held a medical, or didn't hold one during the 10 year look back period, and can't get a medical because of health issues, but are still fit enough to self-assess and fly safely.

* If you own an ultralight-type aircraft that's too heavy for part 103, you may be able to get it N-Numbered and legally fly it as an LSA and log the time and count it toward higher pilots certificates.


That window of opportunity closed years ago
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:02 pm

bryancobb wrote:

I go to my FBO routinely and rent their late-model 172's in spite of the fact that I haven't held a medical OF ANY CLASS in over 10 years. I load up
my family of 3 and go 500 miles or more.


You can only do that if you meet the Basic Med requirements. You must have HELD a valid FAA medical certificate at some time within 10 years of 7/15/2016 (not revoked) and you must have completed a physical exam by a licensed physician following the FAA medical checklist for Basic Med and you must complete the on-line training course. The medical exam is required every 4 years and the on-line training is every 2 years IIRC.

My second class FAA medical expired 5/31/2006 (as a third class), so I missed out on Basic Med by 45 days.
Last edited by TimTaylor on Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby 3Dreaming » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:15 pm

drseti wrote:
bryancobb wrote:Now under Basic Med, a Private Pilot with 40 hours can carry passengers without a medical.


Unfortunately, Bryan, that statement is not entirely complete. A Private pilot or above may let his or her medical certificate expire, satisfy the requirements of Basic Med (physical exam, physician-signed form, and online course), and then exercise a host of privileges under Basic Med, in a wide range of aircraft. But, to be allowed to take that initial Private Pilot practical test (checkride), he or she must have at least a valid third class medical certificate. So, you can't use Basic Med to become a PP.


Paul, a pilot may use BasicMed to take the initial private pilot checkride. Just like anyone else using BasicMed they must have had a active medical past the 2006 deadline, complete the training, and get a physical from a MD.

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby 3Dreaming » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:25 pm

drseti wrote:
bryancobb wrote: Nowadays, you can still get a class III if you want to and may still get that manilla student pilots license.


That Manila student pilot certificate no longer exists. The student certificate (which no longer expires) is blue plastic. The temporary student pilot certificate (issued by a CFI or DPE) is printed on white paper and is good for 120 days. An AME can still issue a medical certificate, but can no longer issue a studednt pilot certificate.

The FAA probably has a form for "Basic Med" Private students that is very similar to or even the exact same form that Sport Pilot students fill out to get their Student Pilots License.


No, basic med only applies to private or above, not student pilots.[quote]



A couple points.

There are still some student pilot/medical certificates floating around out there. My son has one that doesn't expire until July 2020.

Student pilots can use BasicMed. I have a student that is currently operating under BasicMed.

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby drseti » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:08 am

3Dreaming wrote:A couple points.

There are still some student pilot/medical certificates floating around out there. My son has one that doesn't expire until July 2020.

Student pilots can use BasicMed. I have a student that is currently operating under BasicMed.


Good points, both. I should have stated that no new combo student pilot/med certificates have been issued for some time now. Of course, there could be some out there that haven't expired yet.

Similarly. I should have stated that I know of no new student pilot starts under Basic Med, because I've never yet encountered a prospective student who met the prior 3rd class requirement within the look back period. But I concede it's possible.

OTOH, we were told in my latest DPE training course (last year) that we couldn't give PP or above checkrides to applicants without a current FAA medical. No mention of Basic Med being accepted. And, last time I processed one, IACRA required a medical certificate to be entered for everything except Sport, glider, or balloon.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby TimTaylor » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:48 am

AC_68-1A does say students pilots can operate under Basic Med, but I'm not aware if or where the FAR's have been revised to allow a student to take a Private Pilot flight test without a 3rd class or higher FAA medical. It is only logical that they could, but where is it allowed? It might be another of those unintended technicalities that exist almost anytime a significant change to the FAR's is made. Or, maybe it is allowed somewhere is the FAR's that I am not aware of. Or, maybe the FAA thought that allowing students to operate under Basic Med implied they could take a Private Pilot flight test using Basic Med. I don't know. I think the universe of student pilots operating under Basic Med would be rather small. Seems like most student pilots would have gotten their Private before their FAA medical expired.

Also, it goes without saying, but Basic Med does not convey any pilot privileges above and beyond those conveyed by a student, Recreational, or Private pilot certificate as applicable.
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby bryancobb » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:14 am

Ok,

Let me clear up some communication errors I caused by my choice of words and the way I phrased my sentences.

* If you are a good student pilot who picks it up quickly you Can take passengers in "AS LITTLE AS 20 hours logged" for Sport Pilots and in "AS LITTLE AS 40 hours logged" for Private Pilots.

* Flying without a Medical Certificate (Commonly Referred to as Basic Med) DOES require that you have held at least a Class III FAA Medical
Certificate at least ONCE within the look-back period from the PRESENT DAY. For me, I took the Medical Self-Assessment on 5/12/2017. I saw my
Dr. within a couple of days and started flying under Basic Med. I had a Valid Class III that I let voluntarily expire in 2008, which put me within the
10 year window and made me eligible for Basic Med.

If a brand new student comes along tomorrow, seeking a Private License, and they have never had any class of FAA Medical Certificate, they will
have to get one before they can solo because the don't meet all the requirements for Basic Med. When that Class III does expire in 5 years (if under 40 y/o) and in 2 years (40 and over), they can fly without a Medical Certificate from then on, even if they have yet to finish their Private License. Basic Med even allows a pre-checkride Student Pilot to solo in this case.

I may not parse my words and say things correctly but I know my stuff. I am not on the most current sheet of music when it pertains to new administrative procedures (like the plastic Student Pilots License versus the manila card). The reason is, I sort of closed the book when that letter came out from the FAA Legal department that prohibited Sport CFI dual from counting toward Private and higher. Now that legal ruling has been rescinded so I got back on the horse.

The big difference between me and a lot of you is...I believe in the principle that the PTS Standards are super easy to achieve for any student who is near average or above, at very close to the FAA minimums of aeronautical experience. The premise that it always takes significantly longer does not hold water with me.

I do NOT think I'm anything special and I don't have an ego. But, I am a 2000 hour Military-Trained Chinook pilot who got a fixed-wing private license before leaving for flight school in 1986. In 1997, I added a Commercial/Instrument to my fixed wing license so I could fly everything at our Georgia State Patrol Aviation Unit. I was flying before TRSA's were changed to Class D when the new alphabet airspace class system was implemented. I was around when you could fly under Class B without a Mode C Transponder.

I have passed every checkride I have ever taken, Civilian or Military, on the first attempt. Every checkride was within a couple of hours of being at FAA minimums of aeronautical experience. I have never had a violation with the FAA and have never put a scratch on any aircraft I flew. I made a 100 on the FOI written and never made below an A on the other five Civilian writtens I have taken. That doesn't mean I'm a genius but it does mean I know how to read and interpret the FAR's.

Please cut me some slack when I word something in a way that don't communicate what I am trying to say. Correct me but don't flame me.
Bryan Cobb
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Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
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Cartersville, Ga
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby bryancobb » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:18 am

TimTaylor wrote:...Basic Med does not convey any pilot privileges above and beyond those conveyed by a student, Recreational, or Private pilot certificate as applicable.


I agree 100%.
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Manufacturing Engineer II, Meggitt Airframe Systems, Fuel Systems & Composites Group
Cartersville, Ga
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby bryancobb » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:36 am

TimTaylor wrote:
...you must have completed a physical exam by a licensed physician following the FAA medical checklist for Basic Med and you must complete the on-line training course. The medical exam is required every 4 years and the on-line training is every 2 years IIRC.


You are correct on the 4yr 2yr statements you made.

Just keep in mind, the Family Physicians signing you off will most likely NOT be pilots themselves. As far as I understand, the FAA has not required them to be trained on the idiosyncrasies of medical characteristics of patients pertaining to flying. The foundation of Basic Med is to make the pilot themselves into the subject-matter expert on their individual fitness to act as PIC. The way the FAA meet this mandate is to require every pilot to take an online AOPA knowledge test every two years. This test is minimal but until pilots start falling out of the sky because of medical deficiencies, it will be the method of screening. The only time the M.D. will be willing to elevate themselves to gate keeper and deny basic med signature will be if a patient comes in with an obvious and overwhelming problem that screams "THIS GUY SHOULD NOT BE IN THE AIR."
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Manufacturing Engineer II, Meggitt Airframe Systems, Fuel Systems & Composites Group
Cartersville, Ga
bryandcobb@att.net

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby bryancobb » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:43 am

ShawnM wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:...And the scary part is this guy is a CFI.

I’m still wet behind the ears as a sport pilot and I know for sure I can’t take passenger as soon as I log 20 hours. I can’t take passengers until I COMPLETE all my training and a DPE tells me “you are now a licensed pilot”.


You are 100% correct. I was just trying to convey that a person of average intelligence, with average skill and ability should be able to become a Sport Pilot at, if not within a few hours of 20 hours logged. That Sport Pilot License will allow them to carry one passenger.
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Manufacturing Engineer II, Meggitt Airframe Systems, Fuel Systems & Composites Group
Cartersville, Ga
bryandcobb@att.net


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