Long thread on COPA about an accident in Tallahassee, FL back on 11/13/2008, and a subsequent lawsuit against Sandel.
I'll link to the NTSB report* later, but this was heartbreaking:
Can't say if it was a training deficiency or a lack of checklist discipline or something else, but its still sad.
*What I have right now is the Docket, where the photo came from: http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/hitli ... N=77815656
NTSB Report: [https://ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.a ... 053&akey=1
CAPS (BRS) pin in place
Moderator: drseti
- FastEddieB
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Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place
When I got my first CT I was reluctant to pull the pin, now it is attached to the ignition key. It has been that way for quite a while.
- FastEddieB
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Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place
Yep!
There's no guarantee that even with the pin removed, he would have pulled.
Things can happen very fast at approach altitudes, and if not "primed" for "Pull Early/Pull Often" it probably will not happen regardless.
Lots of dead pilots and passengers who had the pin out and never pulled when it very probably would have saved their lives.
There's no guarantee that even with the pin removed, he would have pulled.
Things can happen very fast at approach altitudes, and if not "primed" for "Pull Early/Pull Often" it probably will not happen regardless.
Lots of dead pilots and passengers who had the pin out and never pulled when it very probably would have saved their lives.
Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place
Point very well taken.FastEddieB wrote:Yep!
There's no guarantee that even with the pin removed, he would have pulled.
Things can happen very fast at approach altitudes, and if not "primed" for "Pull Early/Pull Often" it probably will not happen regardless.
Lots of dead pilots and passengers who had the pin out and never pulled when it very probably would have saved their lives.
Bill Ince
LSRI
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator
LSRI
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator
Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place
When I did a couple of lessons in a CTLS at a SC school it was the first time I'd experienced a BRS. The CFI was concerned that the pin was kept in and that he'd pull it first and then pull the chute if we had a significant emergency.
He seemed to be as concerned about it deploying accidentally as he was of deploying it deliberately.
He seemed to be as concerned about it deploying accidentally as he was of deploying it deliberately.
Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place
Misplaced concern, IMO. The penalty for an accidental deployment is a hefty insurance claim...the penalty for not being able to pull it in time is death. In a low altitude stall/spin, that pin in there virtually guarantees no options. You'd have to be quick on the trigger to save yourself in that scenario with a BRS, with the pin in it's a non-starter.Nomore767 wrote:When I did a couple of lessons in a CTLS at a SC school it was the first time I'd experienced a BRS. The CFI was concerned that the pin was kept in and that he'd pull it first and then pull the chute if we had a significant emergency.
He seemed to be as concerned about it deploying accidentally as he was of deploying it deliberately.
Plenty of other scenarios you can envision where a two-step operation will not work well also. Plus in a real life-or-death emergency the first thing to go is fine motor coordination, like pulling a small pin from the BRS handle. There is a reason that handle is big and easy to grab and pull.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place
I sat though a seminar given by one of the guys from BRS. He told of an accident where the handle bracket was deformed by the pilot trying to pull it with the pin still in place. This and having the chance to see what the forces were that are required to pull the handle made me change my mind about pulling the pin.
- FastEddieB
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Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place
Just curious: is removing the pin a checklist item?Nomore767 wrote:When I did a couple of lessons in a CTLS at a SC school it was the first time I'd experienced a BRS. The CFI was concerned that the pin was kept in and that he'd pull it first and then pull the chute if we had a significant emergency.
He seemed to be as concerned about it deploying accidentally as he was of deploying it deliberately.
If so, I'd have qualms about an instructor sending the message: "Don't worry about the manufacturer's checklist - we'll do it my way".
Not to say I've never said those words!
Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place
I can't speak to the CTLS, but on my CTSW it's in there for sure. In fact, the pre-takeoff checklist is printed on a factory sticker on my panel. Every checklist item is printed in black text on a yellow background, except "RESCUE SYSTEM: PIN OUT" is printed in black on red to make it stand out.FastEddieB wrote:Just curious: is removing the pin a checklist item?Nomore767 wrote:When I did a couple of lessons in a CTLS at a SC school it was the first time I'd experienced a BRS. The CFI was concerned that the pin was kept in and that he'd pull it first and then pull the chute if we had a significant emergency.
He seemed to be as concerned about it deploying accidentally as he was of deploying it deliberately.
If so, I'd have qualms about an instructor sending the message: "Don't worry about the manufacturer's checklist - we'll do it my way".
Not to say I've never said those words!
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
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- Location: WV Eastern Panhandle
Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place
The box of Epi-Pens I bought last time I had an impressive reaction to a bee sting (I really should re-consider having a hive in my back yard... not 'hits' at all last year, though), it came with a 'practice pen' so I could see exactly how to arm and how hard to smack my leg with it in order to make it fire.
Manufactures of BRS equipped planes or an aftermarket company could make available a mock up of the handle that you can clamp to a table, or door frame (whatever) that replicates the feel of the handle and the amount of tug needed to fire off the parachute. Heck, if you know how hard the handle has to be pulled, at least you can put an eye bolt into a stud, hook up a fish scale and pull until the scale reaches the magic number. At least this will give you (or a student or prospective buyer) an idea of the pull necessary.
Manufactures of BRS equipped planes or an aftermarket company could make available a mock up of the handle that you can clamp to a table, or door frame (whatever) that replicates the feel of the handle and the amount of tug needed to fire off the parachute. Heck, if you know how hard the handle has to be pulled, at least you can put an eye bolt into a stud, hook up a fish scale and pull until the scale reaches the magic number. At least this will give you (or a student or prospective buyer) an idea of the pull necessary.
- Bruce
- FastEddieB
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Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place
I've pulled in a Cirrus CAPS simulator, and it is NOT something you could easily do accidentally.
"2. Activation Handle (Both Hands)......PULL STRAIGHT DOWN Approximately 45 lbs of force is required to active CAPS. Pull the handle with both hands in a chin-up style pull until the handle is fully extended."
Source: http://cirrusaircraft.com/static/img/CAPS_Guide.pdf, itself an interesting read.
I've also NOT pulled, and died, but I think you all know that story!
"2. Activation Handle (Both Hands)......PULL STRAIGHT DOWN Approximately 45 lbs of force is required to active CAPS. Pull the handle with both hands in a chin-up style pull until the handle is fully extended."
Source: http://cirrusaircraft.com/static/img/CAPS_Guide.pdf, itself an interesting read.
I've also NOT pulled, and died, but I think you all know that story!
Re: CAPS (BRS) pin in place
FastEddieB wrote:Long thread on COPA about an accident in Tallahassee, FL back on 11/13/2008, and a subsequent lawsuit against Sandel.
I'll link to the NTSB report* later, but this was heartbreaking:
NTSB Report: [https://ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.a ... 053&akey=1
As we both know from years on the Cirrus Forum Eddie, the "pull early and pull often" was drilled into everyone's head. I think the parachutes are sort of an afterthought in LSA's and a lot of people either aren't convinced or haven't spent enough time thinking about and discussing the value and proper usage.
I flew with (2) instructors in an LSA before I bought my Sting and neither pulled the parachute pin, in spite of it being on the Checklist. I pulled it and gave both instructors some "instruction" on the proper usage of whole plane parachutes. Neither had ever flown a Cirrus and were very unsophisticated when it came to what a parachute can and can't do and when to consider using it.