Newbie from So Cal - San Fernando Valley

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3Dreaming
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Re: Newbie from So Cal - San Fernando Valley

Postby 3Dreaming » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:15 pm

drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:If a student pilot is seeking private pilot privileges in a LSA he needs a medical for solo flight.


Not if he or she is already a licensed Sport Pilot seeking to upgrade to Private, Tom. That Sport Pilot certificate already affords PIC privileges while training for the Private in an LSA. The licensed SP can do all the solo XC flying he or she desires, in an LSA, under SP rules -- including the long XC required for the PPL. (That's one of the many reasons why all of my Private Pilot candidates to date have gotten their Sport Pilot certificate along the way.)

That said, I will admit that most of my SP to PP upgrade students do get their medical certificate very early in the process.


A sport pilot upgrading to a private is not a student pilot, they are a sport pilot.

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Re: Newbie from So Cal - San Fernando Valley

Postby CTLSi » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:19 pm

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Last edited by CTLSi on Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Newbie from So Cal - San Fernando Valley

Postby 3Dreaming » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:57 pm

CTLSi wrote: A Sport Pilot fulfilling the xcountry requirements for Private Pilot flying as PIC is both. And the SP doing the night cross country and landings must still do it with a CFI in the plane. They may be a certified pilot but they are also a student when getting the PP log book entries.


I suppose you can say anybody who is taking instruction is a student, but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about the pilot certificate held by the pilot. A sport pilot who is receiving training for a private pilot is still a sport pilot, and not a student pilot.

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Re: Newbie from So Cal - San Fernando Valley

Postby CTLSi » Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:13 pm

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Re: Newbie from So Cal - San Fernando Valley

Postby 3Dreaming » Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:22 pm

MovingOn wrote:I said nothing about what license he is seeking. If he has no medical, he is obviously seeking Light Sport. If he has a medical, he could be seeking either.

EDIT: Just to add, I'm sure there are numerous examples of student pilots who solo LSA with no medical and later decide to go for a Private. So, they go get a medical and continue on in the LSA or fly something larger. In many cases, the student probably doesn't decide which way he's going until sometime after solo in the LSA.


There are many people who automatically think that if you are flying a LSA you don't need a medical, but what you are flying is not what determines that you need a medical. It is what you are doing when you fly. Take a look at 61.23 in regards to medical certificates. It is all about the privileges you are trying to exercise, and not the kind of aircraft you are flying.
I do most of my flight training in a CTLS. Most of my students start with plans to get a private pilot certificate. They like flying the newer airplane. If they are training for the private pilot they are required to hold at least a third class medical to exercise the privileges of their student pilot certificate. If they start with plans to get a sport pilot they can self certify with a drivers' license. If they reach a point and decide to go private, then they need the medical.

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Re: Newbie from So Cal - San Fernando Valley

Postby drseti » Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:29 pm

CTLSi wrote:1. you must get a log book entry signed by a CFI for the longer xcountry flight.


Not true. Any Licensed SP can go on as long a solo XC as he or she pleases, without a logbook entry. The only logbook endorsement needed is one from the recommending CFI when you go for your checkride, stating that all PP requirements have been met.

2. you must have a CFI along with you on the night xcountry with 10 full stop landings and get that logbook entry.


Only partly true. Yes, you need night dual. But there is no specific logbook endorsement saying you got night dual - only the checkride authorization cited above.

3. if you did not get an ATC endorsement as an SP, you will need to add that training


True, but as long as you've received the training, there is no requirement that you get the SP airspace endorsement. Besides which, I give airspace training and endorsements all the time to Sport Pilots who are not Student Pilots, or going for any higher ratings. Certificated pilots of all stripes can get additional training and endorsements - this doesn't nexessarily make them student pilots.

4. you must study for and take the PP written, you must get a CFI to sign for that too.


Again, partially true. CFI endorsement for a knowledge test, or, a certificate of completion from an approved course of study.

5. you must fly two extra hours of under hood with a CFI and get a logbook entry for that


Not exactly. It's three hours total instruction in flight solely by reference to instruments, not two additional hours. And again, the logbook entry does not make you a student pilot. Every pilot gets a logbook endorsement when taking a flight review or instrument proficiency check - but that does not make them student pilots

6. you must take a new checkride and get a CFI to sign off on that too


The Designated Pilot Examiner may or may not be a CFI. Even if he or she happens to be, the DPE is acting as a DPE, not a CFI, while giving a practical test.

Non-CFIs harbor a lot of misconceptions as to what is or isn't required for various ratings. (Sadly, so do many CFIs.)
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: Newbie from So Cal - San Fernando Valley

Postby 3Dreaming » Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:42 pm

CTLSi wrote: You are a student for a bunch of reasons (aside from also getting a 3rd class medical to bring to your checkride).

1. you must get a log book entry signed by a CFI for the longer xcountry flight.
2. you must have a CFI along with you on the night xcountry with 10 full stop landings and get that logbook entry.
3. if you did not get an ATC endorsement as an SP, you will need to add that training
4. you must study for and take the PP written, you must get a CFI to sign for that too.
5. you must fly two extra hours of under hood with a CFI and get a logbook entry for that
6. you must take a new checkride and get a CFI to sign off on that too

The only thing you don't need SP versus PP is a solo endorsement, you are already able to fly that way on your SP.


A third class medical doesn't make you a student pilot.

A private pilot is required to have additional endorsements and a check ride to become a commercial pilot, does that make him a student.
A commercial pilot needs additional instruction, endorsements, and a check ride to become a CFI. Does that make him a student.
An ATP needs additional instruction and endorsements to fly a tail wheel airplane. Does that make him a student.
A sport pilot moving up to a private pilot does not become a student pilot again. They are a sport pilot receiving additional training and endorsements.
It's not about the training and endorsements that make you a student pilot it is the certificate that you hold.

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Re: Newbie from So Cal - San Fernando Valley

Postby CTLSi » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:29 pm

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Re: Newbie from So Cal - San Fernando Valley

Postby drseti » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:40 pm

CTLSi wrote:When going for SP, you get a Sport Pilot Student Certificate.


Not quite. That piece of paper says simply Student Pilot Certificate. There's no word Sport anywhere on it. So, technically, there is no such thing as a "sport pilot student certificate," any more than there is a "glider pilot student certificate" or a "hot air balloon student certificate." In other words, a Student Pilot Certificate never carries category and class designations.

When going for PP, you get a Medical Certificate nClass And Student Pilot Certificate


Again, not quite. You could get one of those. Or, if you are a licensed Sport Pilot, and will do all your solo flights in an LSA, all you need is a Sport Pilot Certificate along with a Class n Medical Certificate. You don't need to get the "Medical and Student Pilot" certificate.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: Newbie from So Cal - San Fernando Valley

Postby 3Dreaming » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:56 pm

CTLSi wrote:Another way to settle this?

When going for SP, you get a Sport Pilot Student Certificate.
When going for PP, you get a Medical Certificate nClass And Student Pilot Certificate

I showed the list of items an SP must complete and get endorsements for before being able to take the CHECKRIDE and get a PP Airmens Certificate.

If you don't consider yourself, or want to be thought of as a student when going from SP to PP fine. But for purposes of what the government considers you, the documents are entitled as they are entitled.


The government considers you a student pilot if you hold a student pilot certificate, and they consider you a sport pilot if you hold a sport pilot certificate.

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Re: Newbie from So Cal - San Fernando Valley

Postby MrMorden » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:40 pm

CTLSi wrote:A Sport Pilot fulfilling the xcountry requirements for Private Pilot flying as PIC is both. And the SP doing the night cross country and landings must still do it with a CFI in the plane. They may be a certified pilot but they are also a student when getting the PP log book entries.


Not really. A Student Pilot cannot make a flight without a logbook endorsement. A SP can make all the cross countries in the PP syllabus without any endorsement at all, and can act as PIC on any flight in the PP syllabus except the night flight; the instructor is merely there for training purposes, not as PIC.

I have made multiple solo 500nm cross country flights as a SP, I think I have fulfilled the PP cross country requirements.
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Re: Newbie from So Cal - San Fernando Valley

Postby CTLSi » Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:35 pm

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Re: Newbie from So Cal - San Fernando Valley

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:50 pm

CTLSi wrote:
MrMorden wrote:
CTLSi wrote:A Sport Pilot fulfilling the xcountry requirements for Private Pilot flying as PIC is both. And the SP doing the night cross country and landings must still do it with a CFI in the plane. They may be a certified pilot but they are also a student when getting the PP log book entries.


Not really. A Student Pilot cannot make a flight without a logbook endorsement. A SP can make all the cross countries in the PP syllabus without any endorsement at all, and can act as PIC on any flight in the PP syllabus except the night flight; the instructor is merely there for training purposes, not as PIC.

I have made multiple solo 500nm cross country flights as a SP, I think I have fulfilled the PP cross country requirements.


Not if you don't have an endorsement in your log book from a CFI do you have it. And no CFI will put that in your book just taking your word for it unless he wants to lose his ticket. One more thing, the PP xcntry requirement is specific not just in distance, but in number of landings and length of legs between those landings.

The DPE checks the logbook for compliance. They do not ask you if you have flown a lot, nor care.


The requirements for student pilot cross country endorsements are covered in 61 sub part C, and only apply to student pilots. Once again, a sport pilot is not a student pilot. A sport pilot is exercising the privileges of 61 sub part J, and does not need an endorsement to do solo cross country.

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Re: Newbie from So Cal - San Fernando Valley

Postby drseti » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:34 pm

I not only agree with Tom, my experience with SP graduates continuing on to PP is consistent with this interpretation. As for the question of what the DPE might require, AFAIK no party to this discussion is a DPE. But, Paul Hamilton is, and he sometimes monitors these discussions. If you're here, Paul, please chime in!
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
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fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
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Re: Newbie from So Cal - San Fernando Valley

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:42 pm

drseti wrote:I not only agree with Tom, my experience with SP graduates continuing on to PP is consistent with this interpretation. As for the question of what the DPE might require, AFAIK no party to this discussion is a DPE. But, Paul Hamilton is, and he sometimes monitors these discussions. If you're here, Paul, please chime in!


No disrespect to any DPE's, but they don't always know the rules like they should. The same goes with FSDO's. On the CT form there is a post where the FSDO told an instructor he couldn't do a flight review in a 172 with someone who doesn't have a medicL


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