Page 1 of 4
Spin Training.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 7:52 am
by tl-3000pilot
This question is for the Instructors:
Do you feel that spin recovery training should be a requirement for receiving any ticket to be a Pilot in the U.S. again?
If a trainer had the BRS feature, I know I would feel a lot more comfortable with spin recovery training.
My former Instructor introduced me to a stall spin once, he was PIC throughout the maneuver, it was quite amazing. I found it exciting and scary at the same time.
Just wonder if more lives would be saved if more of us Pilots was skilled enough to recover from such an incident and if having the BRS feature would make such training more safe?
It is my understanding that the FAA decided that spin recovery training was too dangerous and decided that it no longer had to be a requirement, unless you are a CFI / CFII.
Your thoughts?
Thanks!
tl-3000.
Re: Spin Training.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:32 am
by CharlieTango
Personally I feel far safer having experience doing spins. First for being able to recognize an imminent spin and avoid it. Second for knowing that I can execute a recovery.
We always did spins without chutes, the FAR provides for that but we did it in designs that were more thoroughly tested then LSA.
If I found myself in a spin in my CTSW I would certainly execute a recovery before I would pull the BRS. Mountain turbulence makes that event more likely.
Re: Spin Training.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:50 am
by drseti
When I was working toward my CFI some 3+ decades back, I found my spin training both instructional and enjoyable. I also benefitted from aerobatic training, mountain flying training, glider lessons, and mock combat maneuvers. I would highly recommend them all to any pilot, but I am not in favor of an FAA mandate, or anything else that is going to raise costs, deter students, or in any way further diminish the pilot population.
As for the BRS, I don't see how having one will in any way make a difference in spin training safety. A spin in an appropriate aircraft, started from a sufficient altitude, is fully recoverable - certified aircraft have been spin tested to specific standards, and if properly maintained, will continue to be spin-safe. And, I'm not so sure deploying a BRS in a spin is a good idea in any case - could well make matters worse, as shroud lines could easily tangle around the spinning aircraft, preventing a normal recovery.
LSAs may not have been spin tested (and if they have, it may not have been to the same standards), are generally placarded against aerobatic maneuvers, and hence should not be used for intentional spins, period.
When I get my new simulator online, I plan on doing my own spin tests in the virtual SportStar. If that works, maybe I'll offer safe spin training that way.
Re: Spin Training.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:22 am
by deltafox
Yes, you should have spin training in the right airplane with the right instructor. It is important for all pilots to know their own limitations and to recognize when they might be getting into trouble.The spin itself is not inherently dangerous (I'm told early mail carriers used it regularly to get through holes in an undercast) but must be respected. Find a CFI with a Citabria and have some fun.
Re: Spin Training.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:29 am
by drseti
deltafox wrote:Yes, you should have spin training in the right airplane with the right instructor.
And let me be the first to say: mine is not the right airplane, and I am not the right instructor!
Re: Spin Training.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 am
by jnmeade
We all should know more about the aerodynamics of a spin - how and why the aircraft spins, how to prevent entry and if in a spin how to get out of it.
I enjoyed my spin training and use to go out and practice on my own in a Citabria. I did not go into a fully developed spin (more than 3 turns). I was content with spin entry and recovery.
I think the CFI spin training should be more rigorous. In my experience, it was a couple of incipient spins, a sign off, and that was it. It would be good if the CFI knew and encountered a spin in the likely configurations. That would be spin over the top from a skidding turn (base-final).
I've done cross-control stalls and they are very dramatic. I would not do one without the student being fully briefed, but any student who has sat through a cross control stall will never get the ball out of center on a turn again. I promise.
Maybe there should be more encouragement to participate in upset training familiarization, if nothing else. An hour or two with a skilled CFI in a good plane.
Re: Spin Training.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 10:55 am
by CharlieTango
Jim,
For some, like me upset training might be more important than spin training.
Re: Spin Training.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 11:24 am
by drseti
jnmeade wrote:I think the CFI spin training should be more rigorous. In my experience, it was a couple of incipient spins, a sign off, and that was it.
Mine was a bit more thorough: three turns each to the right and the left. I thought that was standard.
Re: Spin Training.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:04 pm
by Daidalos
I've done half turn spins in a Tomahawk (aka Tramahawk). I also did upset trainging in an areobatic (CAP10) plane. I performed spins upto 3 turns and recovered on predetermined headings.
Yes the first one is scary, but I remember as a student being afraid of stalls. My God after t a stall means the plane stops flying! LOL
I think spin traiining should be included in all primary flight trainig, however most trainers today are no authorized to spin. I believe spins were once required for primary training but then dropped.
Re: Spin Training.
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:00 am
by jnmeade
CharlieTango wrote:Jim,
For some, like me upset training might be more important than spin training.
CT, should you go for upset training or go right on to anger management?
Re: Spin Training.
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 7:28 am
by FastEddieB
For CFI, I believe 3-revolution spins in each direction must be logged.
I think they're valuable. I've done thousands, many of them of a certain number of turns, then recover on a heading, then go into another maneuver (mostly in my Citabrias). Eventually it becomes just another maneuver.
I would like my students to at least be exposed to an "incipient spin". I mean, set up a spin input - stick all the way back right above the stall and full rudder. Or a departure stall done with feet on the floor. I want them to feel that "going over the top" feeling as a spin is entered. At that point I want them to relax back pressure and apply opposite rudder to stop the developing spin.
I remember I was not exposed to such as a student. Practicing maneuvers solo I went to do a departure stall. I had forgotten and had left some flaps in from a previous approach stall. When the little 150 snapped over to the left (almost certainly due to not enough right rudder) it REALLY got my attention! Put my heart in my throat, as it were.
Hence, I really want my students to have seen that corner of the envelope with me before discovering it on their own.
Reminder - spins are not required for Sport, Recreational or Private Pilot applicants. Hence, parachutes must be worn and it goes without saying the aircraft used must be certified for spins.
Re: Spin Training.
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 8:06 am
by CharlieTango
FastEddieB wrote:For CFI, ...Reminder - spins are not required for Sport, Recreational or Private Pilot applicants. Hence, parachutes must be worn and it goes without saying the aircraft used must be certified for spins.
Here is an opposing opinion.
You don't need to endorse it "as training toward the CFI." Just as training.
The reg. 91.307(d), says that the rule requiring parachutes
==============================
... does not apply to -
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by -
(i) A certificated flight instructor...
==============================
All it means is that "if any certificate or rating" requires a maneuver, in can be done during training. It does not say, "but only when the pilot is actively pursuing the certificate or rating that requires the maneuver at the time the maneuver is performed."
So, there is no requirement that the "student" be going for the particular certificate or rating that the maneuver is required for. IOW, if you, as a primary instructor, wanted to teach a pre-solo student pilot spins, a parachute would not be required.
Or, as the FAA Chief Counsel put it more than 30 years ago (the reg had a different location but used the same words) ...
==============================
Regardless of what certificate or rating the applicant is seeking, an acrobatic maneuver required for any pilot certificate or rating (even one not presently sought by the applicant) may be performed without parachutes when done by, or at the direction of, a certificated flight instructor.
==============================
Re: Spin Training.
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 8:13 am
by FastEddieB
Interesting interpretation!
I always read, "Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating" as to imply the certificate or rating being sought. That would seem to be its intent, but one could parse the words to imply your interpretation (and the FAA's Chief Counsel 30 years ago).
If there's nothing more current than that, I'll gladly yield to that interpretation.
Re: Spin Training.
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 8:37 am
by 3Dreaming
Eddie, I have never heard of or seen the requirement for the spins to be 3 turns.
Re: Spin Training.
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 8:49 am
by drseti
I always thought three turns in each direction was required too, for the CFI. I just checked ยง61.183 - Eligibility requirements:
(i) Accomplish the following for a flight instructor certificate with an airplane or a glider rating:
(1) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after providing the applicant with flight training in those training areas in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins; and
(2) Demonstrate instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures. However, upon presentation of the endorsement specified in paragraph (i)(1) of this section an examiner may accept that endorsement as satisfactory evidence of instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures for the practical test, provided that the practical test is not a retest as a result of the applicant failing the previous test for deficiencies in the knowledge or skill of stall awareness, spin entry, spins, or spin recovery instructional procedures. If the retest is a result of deficiencies in the ability of an applicant to demonstrate knowledge or skill of stall awareness, spin entry, spins, or spin recovery instructional procedures, the examiner must test the person on stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery instructional procedures in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins;