What should I do?

[cerwindel]

Sticky situation..

So I got back into flying again, and have decided I want to get into LSA, my father and I may buy one here in the next year and really want to get my SP license.

So, I took my first flight last weekend, but not in the LSA, as the school I go to has theirs getting an exhaust rebuild. So I said, well I will wait, and he pretty much told me, nah lets go up in the 172 so I can see where you are at, Fine.

During our 1 hour flight he pretty much had me fly the entire time, even though I had not touched the controls in 10 years, we did some stalls, landings and steep turns.

Its not till I swiped my credit card did I feel odd.. So I asked him some questions, thinking, what the heck is going on here.

Me : "So have you ever flown an LSA?"

CFI : "Nah, but dont worry, a planes a plane, at some point they are all the same."

Me : "Do you know the rules for becoming a sport pilot? Are you a SP CFI?"

CFI : "I have a CFI and CFII so, yes I can teach Sport Pilots."

Me : "Ok, but you havent flown the LSA before? You sure?"

CFI : "Yep, its pretty much the same thing, the checkride is the same too I think, gosh I better read up"

Me : "Uhm yes, and let me know when the LSA is repaired id like to train in that only"


What is wrong here?

Thoughts?

[drseti]

What is wrong here?

What's wrong here is that the CFI doesn't know the FARs. In order to instruct in an LSA, he's going to need five hours in type. Yes, a plane is a plane, but light wing loading gives the plane completely different handling characteristics than a 172. See this article:

http://macsblog.com/2011/04/watch-out-for-wing-loading/

I would suggest you talk to the flight school's chief CFI. Ask specifically who on staff has the most experience with training in LSAs, and insist on flying with him or her. Otherwise, you're just paying for your CFI's education.

When shopping for a flight instructor, remember that you are the customer. It's OK to ask questions like "how many Sport Pilots have you graduated?" "What percentage of your students pass the written on the first try?" "What percentage of your graduates pass the checkride on the first try?" If you don't like the answers, find another instructor!

[cerwindel]

What is wrong here?

What's wrong here is that the CFI doesn't know the FARs. In order to instruct in an LSA, he's going to need five hours in type. Yes, a plane is a plane, but light wing loading gives the plane completely different handling characteristics than a 172. See this article:

http://macsblog.com/2011/04/watch-out-for-wing-loading/

I would suggest you talk to the flight school's chief CFI. Ask specifically who on staff has the most experience with training in LSAs, and insist on flying with him or her. Otherwise, you're just paying for your CFI's education.

When shopping for a flight instructor, remember that you are the customer. It's OK to ask questions like "how many Sport Pilots have you graduated?" "What percentage of your students pass the written on the first try?" "What percentage of your graduates pass the checkride on the first try?" If you don't like the answers, find another instructor!

Ok well he does not have 5 Hours in that plane thats for sure.. I like the kid, hes a cool dude, but still I am waiting for some kind of structure to training and I have gotten nada.. I will take your advice and chat with the head hauncho.

P.S. - After reading that article, it makes it seem like the LSA is much bouncier then a 172? This true?

[drseti]

After reading that article, it makes it seem like the LSA is much bouncier then a 172? This true?

That's certainly been my experience in gusty conditions. You'll learn to ride it out and not fight it -- if you try to hold the plane stable in turbulent conditions, it will wear you out! So, you just let it bounce along, making small corrections if things get too far off where you want to be.

There's also a tendency to over-control LSAs. You'll learn to fly it with gentle fingertip pressure (I have my students hold the stick between a thumb and two fingers) rather than applying a death grip. And, finally, think steady pressure, rather than motion, when you deflect the rudder pedals.

[zdc]

What is wrong here?

What's wrong here is that the CFI doesn't know the FARs. In order to instruct in an LSA, he's going to need five hours in type. Yes, a plane is a plane, but light wing loading gives the plane completely different handling characteristics than a 172. See this article:

I can't find the 5 hour requirement in Part 61. Could you please me to it?

[drseti]

It sounds to me as though your flight instructor needs to take an LSA transition course himself before he starts teaching you. Here is the syllabus to my Pilot Downsizer package:

http://avsport.org/about/downsize.htm

Feel free to pass this on to your instructor. If he's willing, I'm more than happy to get him checked out. Not a big deal, but until he's jumped through this minor hoop, he really shouldn't be instructing in an LSA.

[zdc]

I can't find the 5 hour requirement, can you please cite the reg?

[drseti]

I can't find the 5 hour requirement in Part 61. Could you please me to it?

I don't think it's in Part 61; I believe it's in the operating order for DPEs. Maybe Paul H. can point us in the right direction.

[zdc]

Well, there use to be a requirement that DPE's and CFI's [subpart H] to have 5 hours in the specific make and model that they were going to test/instruct in. That was in Part 61 but was dropped when the Sport rule was revised. The CFI would have to have the same catagory and class ratings [SEL] buy not 5 hours in a Sport Plane.

Maybe that CFI knows the regs better than you think.

[drseti]

ZDC, would you instruct a beginning pilot in a plane that you'd never flown before? Would you want to receive instruction from someone who'd never flown that plane, or one with similar flight characteristics? Sometimes, common sense trumps the FARs.

[zdc]

ZDC, would you instruct a beginning pilot in a plane that you'd never flown before? Would you want to receive instruction from someone who'd never flown that plane, or one with similar flight characteristics? Sometimes, common sense trumps the FARs.

No. But let's seperate opinion from fact. You said "What's wrong here is the CFI doesn't know the FAR's." The CFI may in fact get a couple hours in the LSA before instructing, we don't know. Most leasebacks don't allow for 5 hours of instructor familairity use. It may be that Sport Planes really don't make a good fit at traditional flight schools. Most young [i.e. poor] flight instructors are not going to be willing to pay out of pocket to instruct in an LSA.

[drseti]

You said "What's wrong here is the CFI doesn't know the FAR's."

I stand by that statement. He obviously isn't familiar with the SP PTS. He's quoted as saying: "Yep, its pretty much the same thing, the checkride is the same too I think." I'd certainly expect a CFI to know that the checkride is indeed quite different for a SP vs. a PP.

OK, so I haven't memorized all the FARs, and there's lots that I just don't know. But, if a student approached me for training in an area outside of my primary expertise, I think it would be only fair to say "I don't know much about that. Let me do some research and get back to you." This is very different from saying, in effect, "a plane is a plane, and I'm a CFI/CFII."

[zdc]

If you want to slam the CFI for being cavalier, fine. But don't slam him ,with an air of authority, for not knowing about a regulation that doesn't exist.

[drseti]

It was not my intention to slam anybody, merely to concur with cerwindel's impression that something is amiss, and to give him encouragement in pursuing the Sport Pilot rating with a knowledgeable, experienced instructor. I hope I've given him some positive things to think about, and am confident he will be a successful flight student. If nothing else, this experience should encourage him to trust his instincts (a skill very valuable in flying).

[drseti]

for not knowing about a regulation that doesn't exist.

I do know that, when I started instructing in LSAs, there was indeed a five hour requirement. You've indicated that this particular requirement went away during the last revision to the SP FAR (and thanks, BTW, for straightening me out on that). So, I'll admit to being a year out of date on that particular regulation. It still makes sense, however, that a CFI should have some time in any plane he or she is going to instruct in.

How the aspiring CFI is going to get checked out, and who's going to pay for it, are valid concerns. I understand that a young instructor is not likely going to be in a position to pay for the desired training. And, you're right, a leaseback aircraft (or even one owned by the flight school) won't just make itself available for free. I've actually had to confront this issue with my own adjunct flight instructors. I do want to ease their pain, but can't afford to give them free Hobbs time. My compromise is to provide the plane to them at my cost, and provide my own instructional services for free, in giving them their five-hour checkout (which, whether required by FARs or not, are still my company policy, and my insurance carrier's requirement).

Incidentally, when I bought my LSA, I sprung for five hours of dual myself. It is, after all, a different animal from the more highly loaded wings I'd been flying for the previous several decades.

Now, we've kind of hijacked this thread, so I suggest we let others address the original question.