Magazine Article

[yozz25]

In reading the editorial of staff of flight training mag, the attitude towards the flight student is discussed.

What was mentioned is that "the customer is always right". It's an old adage, but putting aside any outrageous behavior by the customer, most customers should be listened to, to discover their personal needs, as one size does not fit all.

What was mentioned was the "contractor" 1099 relationship, as I call it, with the CFI working for the schools.

As I mentioned before, my first school treated me well, like family, but did not have an lsa.

The present school, as I've mentioned, promised to treat me with "kid gloves" but did not address the problems of having instructors familiar with the LSA. I still thing they owe me one on this.

It's the old "not my problem" routine, they throw me to the CFI, a private 1099 guy, who is given the responsibility of "figuring it out" for himself and on my dime. I don't expect CFI to use his dime, he doesn't have any.

This school I also believe overcharges for things I don't get. Like putting in another half hour of hobbs for "ground school". I don't get that, and I wonder how much of it the CFI gets. I'd rather get rid of that charge and pay the CFI myself, on the side, probably more of this cut than he is getting from the school.

Learning to fly for anyone is a mindbending exercise, and with this school, the last thing I needed was to be bombarded with brochures and sales shpiel about the Remos upon setting foot in the door. This really turned me off, since I felt I was being hustled, not a good idea, can cause some students to just walk out the door. This is akin to going into a retail store, where you just want to brouse and chill out, and are bombarded by sales staff who disrupt your concentration and peace.

I eventually had to tell the sales girl to be more subtle, but she is pressured by the boss to sell. She is told to bring out the brochures. I told her to take me to a restaurant and seduce me into buying the plane, at least I get a free meal and drink.

According to the article, the percentage rate of dropouts is high. Probably true, and sometimes I feel this way, but knowing myself, I get over it, and yearn to get back up, since the desire is in my bones.

CFI's want to get the time and not be a slave to the school, move on, schools want to make a profit, some a very big profit, but at what cost to the student?

Teaching is about service, give good service, and reputation will follow. If the old school had an lsa, I would recommend them in a heartbeat, I recommend them to people who want the ppl.

But, as long as the yearning to fly, especially to learn to nail landings, is greater than the comfy of just giving up, I will bite my tongue, take all the nonsense thrown at me, and just keep going until I either get my ticket, or have quenched my thirst of flying.

Heading out of town, taking the log book with me, perhaps I'll try a different model of lsa for the goof.

yozz

[scottj]

Yozz

I have to disagree with you. The customer is not always right. He deserves respect, but no way is he (the flight student) always right.

The role of the flight school, and the flight instructor, is to keep the customer from wrecking the flight school's airplane and killing the poor flight instructor.

Many flight schools are also in the business of selling airplanes. One of the things a flight instructor should teach his student is how to make learning to fly more cost effective. One of the best ways to reduce the price of learning to fly is for the student to purchase an airplane.

You and I have had this discussion before, the advantages of ownership over renting. Remember, nothing happens in this world until a Salesman asks for the sale. No matter what the product is.

Also, you mention paying the flight instructor cash under the table rather than via his contractual agreement with the flight school. Where the heck are your ethics and morals? The CFI who accepts this money is just as bad.

The flight school owner buys the airplane, pays the insurance, the office and hangar expenses, trains the CFI, and marketing to find the customer. The CFI... is an employee (whether 1099 or W2). Taking cash under the table is stealing from me. You can bet I will fire him/her in an instant if I catch this trick, and probably report him to the IRS and FAA just for spite for stealing from me.

Lastly, on the subject of Ground Instruction. Most independent CFI do not have the skills, knowledge, or facilities to teach a quality ground school. Learning to fly, and becoming a skilled, safe, competent pilot begins on the ground. There is no substitute for, or shortcut for ground schools and ground training.

Regards,
Scott Johnson

[ka7eej]

In my 35 years of sales training I used to say to my salesman "The customer is not always right, but it is our job to try to make them feel that they are!"

My Thought..
Brian

[KSCessnaDriver]

The flight school owner buys the airplane, pays the insurance, the office and hangar expenses, trains the CFI, and marketing to find the customer. The CFI... is an employee (whether 1099 or W2). Taking cash under the table is stealing from me. You can bet I will fire him/her in an instant if I catch this trick, and probably report him to the IRS and FAA just for spite for stealing from me.

I've never once seen a flight school who pays to get someone trained as a CFI. Heck, most of them charge CFI's to get checked out to teach anymore. And in respect to pay, I've always found flight instructors at schools where you pay the CFI separately from the airplane to be much higher quality. The flight school only sets the price of the airplane, and then the CFI gets to charge how much he/she wants to charge.

[scottj]

Well in "my" school, I pay for my new CFI to get trained in the aircraft. A minimum of 5 hours of airplane time and my time.

In "my" school, I pay for my CFI to have some personal time in the airplanes to maintain their currency and proficiency.

In "my" school, I give my CFI the employee discount of 40% on their personal rental time for friends and family.

How have my instructors thanked me in the past year? One quit after getting his 5 hours of free training (to become a Fireman), another takes his buddies on cross country flights to NFL football games and leaves me the beer bottle caps to clean out of the airplane (and then he has the balls to tell me what a shitty business man I am and how dysfunctional the school is).

Not a single one has brought a new student into the school, yet they all ask me for more students. None offer to come to and teach at the weekly ground school, for which I pay them.

We pay our instructors 50% of the CFI charge. How many flight schools pay their instructors $ 28 an hour? While doing all the marketing, and paying all the office and overhead expenses?

Here we have the "customer" telling us how he is going to pay the instructor under the table and screw the flight school owner. No wonder schools are closing across the country. The economy is bad enough, but there are no ethics left in the World.

[yozz25]

Scott:

I can see your point of view as a business person, especially if you are investing in your CFI's and giving them perks to help them out, and I'm sure you have them well briefed on the planes before they take any students up.

This is not the case with me. My CFI has perhaps at best "me" as his fight time in lsa. Is that fair to me? Does he learn on my dime where we are both guessing as to where to put the rpm's?

He admits he had only 4 hours in lsa, bull!!!!!!!!! he looke pretty puzzled himself, but has to put on the show for the boss who invested nothing in getting him up to speed. I've flown with a lady who knew her business in the remos, she was on the money.

I respect your business ethics, and I'm sure if I came to your school I would be offered a competent CFI who knows the plane, not the case here, so what am I as a consumer to do?

I have to be street wise and cover my ass. Also, doesn't the CFI also need his own insurance? Perhaps so.

Most young CFI's I met are in debt up to their eyeballs. My guy knows he needs training the remos, but to tell the boss this would be his kiss of death. for me to even tell his boss this would also be his kiss of death.

As for paying under the table, well, if the school, which seems to be well healed is not giving me proper service for extra ground school charge, which I don't receive anyhow, then I would rather grease the CFI, who would go more out of his way to put me up to speed. I would protest the extra say, 28 bucks I'm paying to the school and throw the CFI 20 on my own.

Perhaps then I would get the ground school training I'm paying for, but not getting.

As for ethics, ethics work both ways, if I'm paying, and I'm not getting a CFI up to flying remos, not getting ground school, even for the half hour I'm paying for, is that ethical towards the student? And if I complain, then it will be taken out of the CFI's hide as he is supposed to protect the interests of the school.

It's a rough business I know, I respect that, but ethics runs both ways, don't promise steak and deliver sizzle.

yozz

[KSCessnaDriver]

We pay our instructors 50% of the CFI charge. How many flight schools pay their instructors $ 28 an hour? While doing all the marketing, and paying all the office and overhead expenses?.

That hurts. So you charge $48/hr for instruction, and pay them $28. I've got no problem with you (the flight school) covering their costs, but to hide it as a cost of instruction isn't fair. Cover it with the airplane, not the instructor. The instructor should make what the instructor charges. I know some flight schools down here in Florida that charge north of $60/hr for instruction, yet only pay the instructor $12/hr. I refuse to do business with them, because of deceptive practices. Charge what you have to for the airplane to cover your costs. Don't use the instruction rate to try to cover fixed costs.

[scottj]

WTF? You think I am being deceptive because I charge the customers $ 105 an hour for the LSA wet, and $ 50 for instruction which is split 50/50 with the CFI? An instructor will do both ground instruction and flight instruction on a typical lesson.

Ever call Roto Rutor and have a plumber show up to clean the crap out of your lines? Do they charge seperately for the truck and tools and the plumber gets cash from you? Who owns the truck? Who pays the advertising expense? Who paid for the insurance?

Do you ask every business you go to... restaurant, doctor, gas station, auto sales, college, what they pay their employees? And if the employee gets a share of the 'profits'?

Using your logic, I should quit billing for engine running Hobbs time and just bill two hours at $ 105 for the airplane for a typical two hour lesson, even though I only flew 1 hour ($ 210). If The instructor who would normally get $ 50 for two hours.... still only gets $ 50 for two hours. But I made an extra hour on the airplane with no gas or operating expenses. How many customers would be willing to do that?

How many flight schools pay more than $ 28 an hour to their independent instructors, and provide all the amenities previously mentioned? If the CFI wants a bigger piece of the action he should go buy his own airplane, hangar, office, insurance, advertising, computers, projectors, office furniture etc and go into business across the hall from me.

Now that I think about it, I will quit and go to work for him. Make more money that way.

I am going to guess here... did you vote for Obamma too? Sounds like you want other people to pay for your bills in life as well.

[KSCessnaDriver]

WTF? You think I am being deceptive because I charge the customers $ 105 an hour for the LSA wet, and $ 50 for instruction which is split 50/50 with the CFI? An instructor will do both ground instruction and flight instruction on a typical lesson.

I think flight schools in general are deceptive in how they bill instruction at times. Not just yours in particular.

Ever call Roto Rutor and have a plumber show up to clean the crap out of your lines? Do they charge seperately for the truck and tools and the plumber gets cash from you? Who owns the truck? Who pays the advertising expense? Who paid for the insurance?

I fail to see where your going here. They provide a service, they don't rent a vehicle.

Do you ask every business you go to... restaurant, doctor, gas station, auto sales, college, what they pay their employees? And if the employee gets a share of the 'profits'?

Doesn't really matter to me. I don't pay for food & wait service separately. It comes totally on one bill, without being broken into sub-categories.

Using your logic, I should quit billing for engine running Hobbs time and just bill two hours at $ 105 for the airplane for a typical two hour lesson, even though I only flew 1 hour ($ 210). If The instructor who would normally get $ 50 for two hours.... still only gets $ 50 for two hours. But I made an extra hour on the airplane with no gas or operating expenses. How many customers would be willing to do that?

I fail to see your logic. I never told you to stop charging for instruction and for flight time. I told you to bill differently. Bill an hourly rate for the airplane, which covers the fixed and operating costs of the business.

How many flight schools pay more than $ 28 an hour to their independent instructors, and provide all the amenities previously mentioned? If the CFI wants a bigger piece of the action he should go buy his own airplane, hangar, office, insurance, advertising, computers, projectors, office furniture etc and go into business across the hall from me.

Sorry that you feel all of the above are required to run a flight school. All of the above incur an expense regardless of instruction going on. So, if you had a bunch of people just renting airplanes, you'd essentially loose your cover on the fixed costs of the physical building. I feel that the word "instruction" tends to suggest you are paying for the services of the flight instructor, not the overhead of the business.

I am going to guess here... did you vote for Obamma too? Sounds like you want other people to pay for your bills in life as well.

Haha, you wish. I'm no fan of his. I'm just not a big fan of what some people could describe as a deceptive accounting practice.

[ibgarrett]

I'm with KSCessnaDriver on this one. When I started my training a few years ago I paid for the plane on one bill, and wrote a check out to my CFI on another. It's changed slightly since then where I can pay the school one bill and they pay the CFI out of that bill based on the time put down. For example, I would fill out a receipt (if the office wasn't open) and put down 2.0 for the CFI and 1.2 for the plane.

I think once the system has changed so the school gets the full amount and pays the CFI out of the time they put in. The school I believe is taking a "small" cut of 10% or so just for the handling of money, but that's only for the "school sanctioned" CFI's. If a CFI came in and wanted to train using their planes, it'd be no different than him or her renting the plane out on his or her own time and getting some money in return for his time from the student.

Being nickeled and dimed or having some strange ways of billing for things tends to make things rather awkward and can make people (me for one) feel a little less comfortable with the business at hand.

Just my $0.02

[scottj]

Knock Knock Pudding Head

Professional Flight instruction is a service. A professional plumber is a service. You pay for their time, whether to them directly or to an employer.

Yet, many cheap flight students think they should only pay the CFI when the motor is running, and not for his total time or ground instruction time.

The student has tied up the flight school's airplane for two hours, yet he is only billed for one hour. You rent a car from Hertz, you pay to the minute you have the keys. Not just when the motor is running.

I would love to find customers willing to pay one lump bill rather than to the minute for the airplane running time and the CFI time. I could bill for two hours as a flat rate and pay the CFI minimum wage, provide him health insurance, and be hailed as a wonderful employer.

You need to stay in college and keep learning about business and marketing if you think flight schools are deceptive in their prices. On second thought, school is not helping you... you need to get out and start your own business and then tell us current business owners how we can change.

There is nothing deceptive when a flight school, which is who you hired via my yellow pages advertisement, bills you 1.2 hours for an airplane and 1.8 (or whatever) hours for the CFI. What the CFI agrees to with the school is none of your business.

As I said earlier, if the CFI has no ethics and tries to go around our agreement, then he will pay the price for stealing from me.

No, I do not allow outside CFI to rent my airplanes and instruct "their" students. I require the CFI to be on my insurance policy... which I pay for... and to teach his students in the manner I prescribe... when he is using my airplane. If they don't like it, then they can go to another flight school... if they can find one...or buy their own airplane etc.

I require all my students/renters to clean and debug their airplanes post flight for the next guy. I bet you would complain about that as well.

[KSCessnaDriver]

Yet, many cheap flight students think they should only pay the CFI when the motor is running, and not for his total time or ground instruction time.

The student has tied up the flight school's airplane for two hours, yet he is only billed for one hour. You rent a car from Hertz, you pay to the minute you have the keys. Not just when the motor is running.

I would love to find customers willing to pay one lump bill rather than to the minute for the airplane running time and the CFI time. I could bill for two hours as a flat rate and pay the CFI minimum wage, provide him health insurance, and be hailed as a wonderful employer.

You need to stay in college and keep learning about business and marketing if you think flight schools are deceptive in their prices. On second thought, school is not helping you... you need to get out and start your own business and then tell us current business owners how we can change.

There is nothing deceptive when a flight school, which is who you hired via my yellow pages advertisement, bills you 1.2 hours for an airplane and 1.8 (or whatever) hours for the CFI. What the CFI agrees to with the school is none of your business.

As I said earlier, if the CFI has no ethics and tries to go around our agreement, then he will pay the price for stealing from me.

No, I do not allow outside CFI to rent my airplanes and instruct "their" students. I require the CFI to be on my insurance policy... which I pay for... and to teach his students in the manner I prescribe... when he is using my airplane. If they don't like it, then they can go to another flight school... if they can find one...or buy their own airplane etc.

I require all my students/renters to clean and debug their airplanes post flight for the next guy. I bet you would complain about that as well.

First, I haven't suggested that a CFI should only be paid while the engine is running. Not sure why you keep trying to tell me what I said, but the CFI should be getting paid for the time he/she is teaching. I don't care that you treat your CFI's as employee's and not as independent contractors.

My beef is with the fact that you insist on covering your fixed overhead costs with flight instruction fee's. You essential are acknowledging that you'd be taking a loss if you don't have any instruction. Put the cost of running your business into the airplane, to cover it, and then charge for the instructor what is actually required to pay the instructor. In the end, it's a wash, but the appearance looks better, to the untrained eye. Beyond that, I don't really care who you allow to flight instruct. I know some FBO's who operate on that policy, and I'm fine with it.

And you've got to be kidding me with cleaning the airplane while I'm renting. Seems like you probably have a monopoly on the market at the present time. Another FBO shows up, with standard FBO policies, and you're going to be scrambling to figure out what to do to keep pilots.

[scottj]

My customers love having clean airplanes. Not a one, only the CFI, have ever complained about two minutes of window debugging.

My pet peeve as a student pilot was having to clean other people's bugs off so I could go do my lesson safely. Now, everyone has a clean airplane... wings, windows and walls when they fly.

We build Aviators, not just teach people to fly, at my school. There are other schools available, yet for some reason... our customers like us.

Most schools break even (or make $ 20 or less) per flight hour on the airplane rental. The CFI income is part of the overall income to the school. I would rather not rent the airplane to an asshole who refuses to play by our pre-agreed rental policies and procedures just to make $ 20 and then I have to go clean up his mess (or hire someone to do it for me).

Do you bitch about the FBO selling charts and gas, and only paying minimum wage to the kid who pulls your airplane out of the hangar for you as well? Or do you expect them to give him a share of the monthly rental income from parking airplanes in their $ 800,000 heated hangar in the winter?

You guys need to wake up and see what the real world is like. It takes money to make money (and provide jobs to other people)...

[ibgarrett]

You sound like a wonderful ambassador to aviation. I'm glad that the schools in the region I learned to fly in doesn't use your method of business operations.

[drseti]

The role of the flight school, and the flight instructor, is to keep the customer from wrecking the flight school's airplane and killing the poor flight instructor.

Scott, a fellow CFI told me years ago that the student's job is to try to kill the flight instructor. The instructor's job is to try to prevent the student from succeeding.