When do Student Sport Pilots usually make their first solo?

[RyanShort1]

This new breed of instructors are raping their students. If you haven't soloed by 10 hours, your instructor is not getting the stuff seared into your brain, or, you are flying when it's to windy.

I beg to differ. If you look at 61.87, and understand how some FSDOs think, you'd see why some CFI's are more cautious than others. Personally, I'm usually soloing a guy at around 12 hours - almost to a student (I have a few exceptions). Things you have to figure in include time to the practice area, instructor's definition of "proficiency" and whether or not you can do lots of takeoffs and landings at the home airport (Frowned upon here because of cranky neighbors). There is NO difference in the solo requirements for Sport Pilot or Private Pilot, except that my interpretation is that you have to teach one less ground reference maneuver. I also usually have my students capable, briefed, and signed off to go to at least one other airport in the event of an emergency situation that they did not cause.
For private pilots it's usually a wash, because they have to get 20 hours of dual minimum anyway, with 10 hours discretionary after the 10 hours of solo for Part 61, so if a student is diligent, it doesn't matter if they get to 18 hours so long as they are working hard. They could still get their ticket at 40 if things go well. I see more issues with too many solo hours that get wasted and bad habits picked up because the students relax too much during solo practice time that have to be ironed out before the checkride.

Ryan

[roger lee]

Hi Paul,

There is one more variable that I have seen over 30 years of training people in what would be described as high risk task oriented education.
I would like to add these thoughts to your list.

The older person tends to have at times a bigger since of morality, younger students don't have the experience in life and as we say sometimes feel a little more invincible or don't realize what the consequences are. We have all seen for many years on TV that plane crashes can kill people and some harbor that thought inside themselves which may become a mental block.
Older people tend to have lived longer and may have a few more phobias to break and this ties into the point above. Older students may have more bad habits to break. Younger students tend to be more open minded which ties into phobias. Older students haven't been in a learning environment as of late and the younger one has. Younger students tend to be more out going and adventurous. Younger students at times tend to be more hand to eye coordinated due to the lifestyles with gaming and controls as they were brought up verses and older student.


I believe all you said to be true, but then you have human nature to add to the mix and how we each look at life. My statements are general and there are people on the top of the scale and on the bottom in both age groups so this is more middle of the road type student.

All of us have seen people who are scared out of their wits and shouldn't consider flying at any age and some are totally fearless and offer a different kind of dangerous risk. The other issue is the CFI. Some are very mellow and good for a student in getting the task oriented messages across and can teach the way each student needs to learn, not the way they want to teach. Some CFI's need to get out of the business. These CFI's cause more harm in what they do to a student mentally.

[deltafox]

Interesting perspective. Thanks. BTW, I was out at LHV yesterday, just 'stretching my legs' and found the entry to 27R interesting, landing between the two ridges. Pretty setting.

[drseti]

I was out at LHV yesterday, just 'stretching my legs'

Were you flying a PiperSport, Dave? I departed in a SportStar at 11:30 AM, and heard a PS inbound, in the pattern -- was that you? If so, sorry I missed you (I landed around 2 PM). Next time, let's try to meet up.

[drseti]

The other issue is the CFI. Some are very mellow and good for a student in getting the task oriented messages across and can teach the way each student needs to learn, not the way they want to teach. Some CFI's need to get out of the business. These CFI's cause more harm in what they do to a student mentally.

Sadly, Roger, what you say is all too true! I try to distinguish between pilots who teach, and teachers who fly.

[flyboy2007]

What it all comes down to is each person is different and has a different learning curve. I soloed in 8 and some have taken as much as 30. It really doesn't matter so long as you are ready and your instructor KNOWS you are ready. Just have fun and enjoy yourself. Life is to short to worry if you can keep up with the next guy!

[tu16]

I'm 54 and as a newly minted pilot can offer my own reflection on my (continuing) learning experience as it is related to age and to the amount of time I've spent in total time in a plane for milestones (a bit less than 15hr to solo, 60hr for a passing checkride)

I didn't find an eye/motor coordination to be a problem. Ground school/knowledge parts were quite easy too. The biggest problem for us, old farts pilot students in general is well known age-related reduction in ability to consciously multi-task, resulting in occasional "brain farts" - see, for example, http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=96213400 ("'Internal Chatter' Limits Multitasking As People Age")
Peak for multitasking ability is in 20s-early 30s - coincidentally ideal age to learn to fly.

The coping mechanism to increase consistency in flying is to limit number of tasks conscious mind has to juggle via repetition of common patterns during learning until some of the tasks are becoming part of subconcious routine. Developing special and strict attention to checklists is a must. This overall means longer time at the stick and slower acquisition of consistency in flying.

For example, I was able to demonstrate PTS-level execution of all skills, do cross-country solo requirements, etc by 24hrs - but "polishing" them for a checkride, so I could do them all in a row on demand w/o single "brain fart" took another whopping 36hrs of flying.

This begs a question - are we, old fart new pilots, a bigger danger to ourselves and public? Aviation research seems to suggest that once basic routine is finally etched into subconcious mind by experience the age-related deterioration on multi-task ability by itself is not a safety factor:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11846182
OBJECTIVE: This study examines age-related differences in crash circumstances and pilot errors in a sample of pilots who flew commuter aircraft or air taxis and who were involved in airplane or helicopter crashes.

METHODS: A historical cohort of 3306 pilots who in 1987 flew commuter aircraft or air taxis and were 45-54 yr of age was constructed using the Federal Aviation Administration's airmen information system. Crash records of the study subjects for the years 1983-1997 were obtained from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) by matching name and date of birth. NTSB's investigation reports were reviewed to identify pilot errors and other contributing factors. Comparisons of crash circumstances and human factors were made between pilots aged 40-49 yr and pilots aged 50-63 yr.

RESULTS: A total of 165 crash records were studied, with 52% of these crashes involving pilots aged 50-63 yr. Crash circumstances, such as time and location of crash, type and phase of flight, and weather conditions, were similar between the two age groups. Pilot error was a contributing factor in 73% of the crashes involving younger pilots and in 69% of the crashes involving older pilots (p = 0.50). Age-related differences in the pattern of pilot errors were statistically insignificant. Overall, 23% of pilot errors were attributable to inattentiveness, 20% to flawed decisions, 18% to mishandled aircraft kinetics, and 18% to mishandled wind/runway conditions.

CONCLUSIONS: Neither crash circumstances nor the prevalence and patterns of pilot errors appear to change significantly as age increases from the 40s to the 50s and early 60s.

But perhaps we should be more cautios advancing our personal minimums giving time to a subconcious mind to keep up in sharing of a workload.

Acccording to http://www.faa.gov/data_research/aviati ... tatistics/ only 1 out of 6 student pilots in 2009 was 50+ and almost half of them is younger than 30, but half of Sport Pilots are 50+ and they are only 1/8 of the student pilots of the same age group....

I wonder what's the demographic of student pilots applying for SportPilot looks like - is this still 1 out of 6 for 50+? What's an anecdotal evidence from our CFIs?

[pjcampbell]

Kevin, what are your plans once you get your SPL ? I dont think there are many/any sport planes in this area?

[N918KT]

pj, once I get my SPL, I mainly plan to do some local flying. Maybe a short cross country. I plan to rent from a flight school or FBO. Currently, there's only one flight school in NJ that has Sport Pilot training. But I heard that a Skycatcher is coming to another flight school closer to my home during this month possibly. I might want to switch flight schools again one last time hopefully, after I check out the new school's rental price, CFIs, and their quality of instruction.

See my other thread, http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=1830 for more details.

[Hambone]

tu16

I'm in the process of setting up a Sport Pilot school. The 55+ crowd is my target audience.

I'm writing some of my own courseware, and your informative and well-written post is well-received.

Thanks!

[tu16]

tu16

I'm in the process of setting up a Sport Pilot school. The 55+ crowd is my target audience.

I'm writing some of my own courseware, and your informative and well-written post is well-received.

Thanks!

Thanks for the kind word!

I do believe that this specific age group of student pilots could benefit from some age-optimized aproaches that speed up the development of operational routines. For example, checklists are not usually required to be learned "by heart" - so that pilot wouldn't stop using them. But what I discovered was that using checklists to memorize routines as an automatic response to situational input is making for quicker aquisition of consistency in flying. In fact just sitting in a plane on a ground alone for 20 min in a rental slot physically working controls, switches simulating correct sequence of "flying" the random situation as an "automated" standard response to standard triggers w/o distraction of actual stick flying - was as useful for quick consistency improvement - as dragging the whole runway on light mains with nose up to memorize correct amount of rudder pressures to keep a centerline on a soft field takeoff....

Best of luck with your school!