Using Flight simulators for LSA flight training

[scottj]

I firmly believe that "flight training begins on the ground, not in the air" (TM).

Given that most new S-LSA have glass panels and qualify as a TAA... where would you rather start learning buttonology?

The truth is, there is just way too much to learn for new pilots "today" vs. a decade or two ago. The race to solo is the enemy. Concentrate on the whole pilot and the student will learn and become licensed.

Scott Johnson

[Paul Hamilton]

I firmly believe that "flight training begins on the ground, not in the air" (TM).

Given that most new S-LSA have glass panels and qualify as a TAA... where would you rather start learning buttonology?

The truth is, there is just way too much to learn for new pilots "today" vs. a decade or two ago. The race to solo is the enemy. Concentrate on the whole pilot and the student will learn and become licensed.

Scott Johnson

Scott, I think from your response you are for not against this divided issue?

[Jack Tyler]

When seen thru a different lens - one not related specifically to LSA training - some of this pro vs. con debate strikes me as more philosophical than practical. Put differently, the debate becomes more about the idea of sim training rather than a) 'when' it can best be used, b) the 'how' of its use, and c) how its use is best 'staged' relative to all the learning modalities & the broader mastery of topics - e.g. from knowledge of the airspace (mostly book based) to in-the-air flying skills (mostly plane based).

Here are some examples to illustrate my point:

-- Before his 'aviation' Midshipman cruise, my son used Microsoft's sim software (about the only thing available then) to learn the basics of flying helos. He did this because he thought there might be a chance to fly in one. Sure enough, he got the chance when plopped in the left seat of an H-3, returning from Roanoke Is. to Norfolk. The HAC gave him the stick and was surprised to find the kid could actually fly it. The HAC ended up turning off the stabilization system on the flight back, so Dev could get a better feel for what's really going on with the a/c. I think this illustrates well that one benefit of a sim, very early in a training program, is familiarization with and coordination of the control inputs. Needless to say, there was no correlation of the MS software with a H-3 out in the real world...but the sim software didn't have to be perfect to be useful.

-- When Dev entered flight training at Pensacola and finished 'ground school', one of the initial components of training was the sim building. Sim training at that early stage is all about procedures, with the sim open and one student (outside the sim) 'backing up' the other student as each flight stage and each emergency procedure is mastered. Subsequently, sim use then all but disappears during the first phase of actual flight training, since the focus lies there.

-- When the syllabus gets to instrument flight, once again sims become an integral part of the training regimen - at least initially - with the sims obviously being closed and the training managed by an instructor vs. fellow student. This time the goals are a mix of procedural learning and also correlating control inputs with flying specific types of approaches.

-- When transitioning to helos, once again sim training was an integral part of the initial training regimen: new procedures to master & learning how to marry control inputs to instrument approaches being two examples.

-- Today sims remain an integral part of the currency training for Dev, 11 years later, altho' much of this training relates to instrument flying and fairly complex EP's, both of which don't relate to the periodic currency training that a PP or SP needs.

I mention all this to illustrate how sims can be a relevant - and at other times, less relevant - training tool, rather than a 'good thing' or a 'bad thing'. But here's another validation of the benefits of "virtual" training: At another point in his career, Dev became an IP at Whiting, now teaching non-pilots to fly. And he commented more than once how he could clearly see the difference (in a positive way) between students who were 'geeks' and avid 'computer pilots' and those that were not. Perhaps not ultimately, as the training syllabus progresses and all students have a chance to climb the same learning ramp with the same in-flight hours. But initially, it did make itself known.

[bryancobb]

For Sport Pilot Students,
The computer sims ARE VERY VALUABLE as a procedure trainer for the new generation of Hi-Tech LSA's. In flight is NOT where you need to learn how to use these new "Cyber-Panels."

[Jack Tyler]

While we may be assuming we are talking about the same kind of flight simulator, we may not be. For example, how many of us are picturing something like this all-but-full motion sim?



Desk PC stations used to cost this much only a few years ago. This illustrates what is possible and affordable, tho' perhaps there are better examples. A sim need not be a PC with a 15" screen and foot pedals. <s>

http://www.mydreamflyer.com/index.html happens to be the URL for this unit.

[Paul Hamilton]

Finally making progress on the web site www.simulatorFlightTraining.com

Have most of the LSa airplanes in now
http://simulatorflighttraining.com/flig ... airplanes/
and working on getting a few more cubs with maybe a cubs page.

Any "good LSA" airplanes i missed?

Still a work in progress.
Paul

[Paul Hamilton]

There is some updated pictures of the LSA airplanes for flight training at:
http://simulatorflighttraining.com/airc ... e-gallery/

Have addded a Cessna Skycatcher model which is pretty good except it has no fuel level reading. I complained to the manfacturer but no response yet.

[Aerco]

For anyone interested in an excellent J3 Cub simulation, thisn is hard to beat:

http://www.a2asimulations.com/store/ind ... ucts_id=37


A far better model than the regular FSX version, with one caveat; the glide ratio appears just a little high. The real Cub I fly seems to come down rather quicker with the engine idling than the model. However overall it's 9 out of 10.[/url]

[Paul Hamilton]

Altough I do not have much experience with J3 Cubs, I do have Aerco's a2a recomended model and it appears to be the best I have seen.

[vacantstance]

I'm gonna be training at Red Stewart Airfield in Waynesville, Ohio this Spring/Summer so I sought out a Cub in X Plane and found a pretty realistic one, free of charge. I have pedals, a CH products yoke and a Saitek joystick. I fly with my joystick and it's amazing just how realistic it is. Of course, I've only been in a real Cub once, years ago...

[jeepinbanditrider]

I've been using a various versions of Microsoft's FS for years since I was a little kid. When I first got it, it was specifically for just having fun. After a while when I got into the civil air patrol I started to actually use it to learn how to navigate with VOR and NDB radios.

I am for the use of sims in training myself but still do not have a license so my opinion may not mean much lol. I do believe that there are somethings that you just can't do on a sim. You can't have the "feel" of the plane, none of the controls I use have force feedback, you don't loose your stomach when the "bottom" falls out ect but I do believe it has it's uses such as I described above learning how to navigate.

At least if I get lost in FS I'm not paying for the aircraft rental or fuel

[vacantstance]

I'm a big fan of he concept of "chair flying" and simulator flying can enhance your development of operational skills. A lot of stuff you can work out in the sim, checklists and procedures, while saving tons of dough. They may not give you the full experience but you can come to your actual flight lessons better prepared.

[Paul Hamilton]

There is plenty you can learn from simulator flying that applies directly to flying the airplane. No 0 g's, no 2 G's i n a 60 degees bank turn.

But plenty of turn to headings, maintain altitude/airspeed, checklists for procedures. Great way to learn. My students love it when the weather is not good for real flying.

[drseti]

It's my opinion that simulator training (which, yes, can be valuable) should be considered a supplement to, not a substitute for, flight training. The biggest problem I have with simulator trained pilots is that they don't have a clue what the windows or canopy are for, preferring to glue their eyes to the EFIS. I tell them that if they want to play Microsoft Flight Simulator, they should do so at home (and then I pull the EFIS circuit breaker, so they have to start looking outside!)

[jnmeade]

3. You can crank in a lot of wind and fly a rectangular pattern, but thats probably the only maneuver that should be practiced in a sim. You are learning to compensate for a cross wind and NOT on controlling the plane in a maneuvers such as turn-about-a-point or Ss

In my opinion, the primary benefit of rectangular patterns is to train for the traffic pattern. The student needs to learn how to stay a given distance away form the airport - runway 1/2 way up the strut, for example. They learn that it is important to know where and how strong the wind is on every leg. They learn how the wind affects the bank and timing of their turns (so they don't end up on base too far from the airport and so they don't overshoot the base-final turn). This stuff is pretty much all eyes out the window type of stuff. If the sim helps learn it, OK, but I remain to be convinced.

My experience as a primary flight instructor was that people who came to instruction with a lot of sim time had some bad habits that had to be unlearned. They didn't know rudder use. They kept their eyes in the cockpit instead of outside, so they didn't have good visual cues when doing turns or stalls.

If they asked me, I suggested they hold off on the sim until about the time they soloed'

Instrument students - the sim could be very helpful if used correctly.

Obviously, I'm in the minority so I don't expect my experiences will convince anyone. I don't instruct primary anymore, so it doesn't matter.

The thing that got me started on an answer was the issue on the rectangular ground reference maneuvers, which I feel pretty strongly are the place to really teach the traffic pattern.