CS prop marked inop?

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

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Atrosa
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CS prop marked inop?

Postby Atrosa » Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:52 am

I was looking into N484TS an noticed a CS prop. When I called the seller they said I could set the prop to meet the LSA limits and just placard the control inop.

Sounds to good to be true, and I know what they say about if it sounds to good to be true.

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drseti
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Re: CS prop marked inop?

Postby drseti » Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:19 am

The FARs are very clear. If an aircraft has ever been equipped and operated outside of the LSA rules, it can never be an LSA.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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HAPPYDAN
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Re: CS prop marked inop?

Postby HAPPYDAN » Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:45 pm

Check me if I'm wrong, but I recall that the LSA requirements allowed a "ground adjustable prop", which, to me, would not include that which the OP was told.

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Re: CS prop marked inop?

Postby drseti » Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:56 pm

That is correct, Dan. A Constant Speed prop is not a ground adjustable prop, no matter how it is placarded.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: CS prop marked inop?

Postby FastEddieB » Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:26 pm

To add to the mix, there exist flight-adjustable props that are not constant speed.

But hardly relevant - none of them are sadly permitted for Light Sports - if they were, I'd spring for one in a heartbeat. A fixed pitch prop is similar to a car with one forward gear, albeit with a "fluid" clutch.
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designrs
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Re: CS prop marked inop?

Postby designrs » Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:32 pm

FastEddieB wrote:To add to the mix, there exist flight-adjustable props that are not constant speed.


Interesting Eddie. Could you possibly cite a few examples? Are some auto and/or self-adjusting?
- Richard
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drseti
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Re: CS prop marked inop?

Postby drseti » Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:37 pm

The simplest example is the two-position adjustable. Push knob for climb prop, pull for cruise prop (or maybe vice-versa; I can't recall).
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Atrosa
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Re: CS prop marked inop?

Postby Atrosa » Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:54 pm

So if the plane can either be built as an lsa or an eab and you put a component on it that makes it perform outside a lsa it can never be an lsa again?

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Re: CS prop marked inop?

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:34 pm

Atrosa wrote:So if the plane can either be built as an lsa or an eab and you put a component on it that makes it perform outside a lsa it can never be an lsa again?


From the FAA definition,
Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following: (7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller if a powered aircraft other than a powered glider.

So if it has had other than a fixed pitch or ground adjustable it does not meet the definition.

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Re: CS prop marked inop?

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:39 pm

designrs wrote:
FastEddieB wrote:To add to the mix, there exist flight-adjustable props that are not constant speed.


Interesting Eddie. Could you possibly cite a few examples? Are some auto and/or self-adjusting?


I think Hamilton Standard had a two position hydraulically operated prop. Then there is the Aeromatic two position prop that adjust automatically using flyweights. Also the Beech Roby that had an crank on the instrument panel. Some of the early Beech Bonanzas had an electric adjustable prop that was not constant speed. For the modern era, I think Neuform offers an electric adjustable prop that is not constant speed. It is installed on some CT's in other parts of the world.

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Re: CS prop marked inop?

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:43 pm

I do sort of know of a ELSA which has a prop that could be in-flight adjustable if the control was in a different location. As it is you have to make adjustments by accessing the control in the baggage compartment. I guess you could say it is electrically ground adjustable.

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designrs
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Re: CS prop marked inop?

Postby designrs » Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:48 pm

Atrosa wrote:So if the plane can either be built as an lsa or an eab and you put a component on it that makes it perform outside a lsa it can never be an lsa again?


Correct me if I am mistaken: A factory-built S-LSA can not be converted to an EAB... but it can be converted to an Experiential with proper history documentation.

The S-LSA plane can convert to Experimental... and one-time back to S-LSA (ONE-TIME ONLY, provided that the aircraft was not modified.)

For example, an S-LSA is factory equipped for IFR, but can not be flown in IMC as a LSA. The plane is converted to Experimental so that an instrument-rated Private Pilot can fly it IMC. To increase resale options, the unchanged Experimental may be converted back to S-LSA.
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drseti
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Re: CS prop marked inop?

Postby drseti » Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:51 pm

I know of another SLSA that has a 2-position prop with the lever mounted to the engine side of the firewall. Since the engine has to be uncowled to switch between climb prop and cruise prop, this can't exactly be done in flight. So, it's considered ground adjustable, hence an LSA.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
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3Dreaming
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Re: CS prop marked inop?

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:53 pm

designrs wrote:
Atrosa wrote:So if the plane can either be built as an lsa or an eab and you put a component on it that makes it perform outside a lsa it can never be an lsa again?


Correct me if I am mistaken: A factory-built S-LSA can not be converted to an EAB... but it can be converted to an Experiential with proper history documentation.

The S-LSA plane can convert to Experimental... and one-time back to S-LSA (ONE-TIME ONLY, provided that the aircraft was not modified.)

For example, an S-LSA is factory equipped for IFR, but can not be flown in IMC as a LSA. The plane is converted to Experimental so that an instrument-rated Private Pilot can fly it IMC. To increase resale options, the unchanged Experimental may be converted back to S-LSA.


You are correct, but some aircraft such as the Van's RV12 can be either SLSA, SLSA converted to ELSA, built as a ELSA, or built as a EAB. You can not convert an aircraft that has been issued a different airworthiness certificate to EAB.

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Re: CS prop marked inop?

Postby drseti » Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:58 pm

designrs wrote:Correct me if I am mistaken: A factory-built S-LSA can not be converted to an EAB... but it can be converted to an Experiential with proper history documentation.


Well, sort of. An SLSA can be converted to an ELSA (but never an E-AB) by an agreeable DAR, but only if it was unmodified from its original SLSA configuration prior to conversion.

The S-LSA plane can convert to Experimental... and one-time back to S-LSA


Not necessarily. A converted SLSA can be converted back only with the approval of the original manufacturer. Since such approval has liability implications, it is highly unlikely that the original manufacturer will grant such approval.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
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