Sport Pilot Talk

About a year ago, the Vashon Ranger was introduced promising to revolutionize the training industry. This year, Piper is introducing the Piper 100 claiming the same. Both promised affordable training aircraft robustly built to withstand the rigors of flight training.
As I am a numbers guy, I decided to compare the planes based on dollar per pound.
The Piper weighs 1,688 lbs and sells for $259,000 or $153.44/lb.
The Vashon weighs 870 Lbs and sells for $99,500 or $114.37/lb.
If you use the per pound weight of the other, the vashon would be $133,492 and the Piper $193,900.
Interesting that the $133,492 is much closer to the prices of the Vashon’s competitors.
I also think the price of $193,000 for the brand new Piper would be much closer to the affordable price they are claiming.
In My opinion, the per pound analyses holds although arguements can be made.
Vashon claims that the lower price is achieved through manufacturing processes that eliminate a large percentage of the labor costs. Eliminating that hand built prototype thing and replacing it with more of an assembly line concept if you will.
Considering that Vashon is a completely new design with all new tooling, the costs are rolled into the sale price of the airplane.
Piper should benefit greatly from using design and tooling that has been long paid for.
Just this consideration alone should enable Piper to cut the price even further.
I am persuaded that piper is counting on the huge amount of money flowing towards the larger schools through the Student loans and the money being spent by the airlines to train their pilots.
They want to grab large profits with minimal effort on their part.
Vashon, however, is truly creating a new way to make and sell trainer aircraft at affordable prices.
We shall see...

An interesting comparison, but personally I wouldn't consider a new Piper even if it were given to me.

My reply touches on politics, but I hope the mods permit it. If it's out of line, please delete it.

Piper Aircraft, the iconic American airplane manufacturer, is now owned by the Brunei Finance Ministry. The Brunei government has recently given its blessing to punish adultery and homosexuality by stoning to death, which violates international human rights law. IMHO, this kind of barbaric punishment has no place anywhere in the world in the 21st century.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... nishments/

A closer look.

Closer look at Vashon:

https://youtu.be/g4sLUsCgJvw

The LSA Vashon barely has the payload capacity to carry two grown but svelte adults airborne, and for sure one of them cannot be me at 250#. The certified non-LSA Piper has more than ample load capability to get even me airborne.

Scooper wrote:An interesting comparison, but personally I wouldn't consider a new Piper even if it were given to me.

My reply touches on politics, but I hope the mods permit it. If it's out of line, please delete it.

Piper Aircraft, the iconic American airplane manufacturer, is now owned by the Brunei Finance Ministry. The Brunei government has recently given its blessing to punish adultery and homosexuality by stoning to death, which violates international human rights law. IMHO, this kind of barbaric punishment has no place anywhere in the world in the 21st century.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... nishments/

+1000

Different markets. The students flying the new Pipers are paying the tab with their parent's fortunes or future debt. PILOT SHORTAGE git your airline seniority number before all your buddies. More interesting question is could someone buy a Ranger or two and make enough money for it to be worthwhile? Guessing it needs to be a hobby job or tax write off. Nothing wrong with that you just have to be a realist about how the bills get paid when looking at shiny flying machines.

It seems like these days quite a few aviation companies (Mooney, Cirrus and Piper ) are owned by foreign ( and often opaque/dictatorial ) entities that seem to be less concerned with direct profits ... almost like playgrounds for regimes that are not exactly driven by market considerations and can afford to hold on to unprofitable but somewhat prestigious assets ...

It comes down to how many mouths the end purchaser has to feed to get their low volume product.

Used to be buy a Piper and the Piper company would profit. They would in turn buy parts from Sensenich, Lycoming, Cleveland, etc. All those companies would profit and continue.

During the 60’s and 70’s the hostile corporate takeovers plus the down turn in production in the 80’s almost every aviation company was bought up by some entity. They have swapped owners multiple times so it’s no longer recognizable other than maybe the airplane designs they still produce.

But now when you purchase the airplane the Company which owns the airplane company has investors, share holders, corporate management, loans to pay which have nothing at all to do with the airplane you bought. There are just way to many hands out to take money from the airplane manufacturing company, engine, propeller and accessory makers. But you are paying to make the balance sheet acceptable so the higher corporation does not dump the airplane manufacturer or simply close it down.

A startup like Vashon can hopefully get to market with less baggage dragging behind than Piper.

New airplanes should be celebrated.
I’m rooting for both. But I think Vashon is doing something revolutionary. 100k for a new glass panel SLSA? It’s a great deal.

ryoder wrote:New airplanes should be celebrated.
I’m rooting for both. But I think Vashon is doing something revolutionary. 100k for a new glass panel SLSA? It’s a great deal.

It is c162 all over again....

Warmi wrote:

ryoder wrote:New airplanes should be celebrated.
I’m rooting for both. But I think Vashon is doing something revolutionary. 100k for a new glass panel SLSA? It’s a great deal.

It is c162 all over again....

Unfortunately, it's not. The Vashon Ranger useful load is only 445 pounds whereas the C162 is 490 pounds. The C162 is a great airplane. It would be my preference along with an RV12.

I seem to be in the minority of folks not impressed with the Vashon. Seems very limited on carrying capacity, to the point where it's not practical for either training or travel. And the weight is not offset by features.

I agree.

MrMorden wrote:I seem to be in the minority of folks not impressed with the Vashon. Seems very limited on carrying capacity, to the point where it's not practical for either training or travel. And the weight is not offset by features.

I am in that minority also.
Last week, at Sun n’ Fun, I saw the Vashion up close and personal. I was not impressed.
Three things the Vashion has going for it.

1) It flies.
2) It has a nice avionics package . . . go figure.
3) You can almost play ping-pong in the cargo bay, behind the uncomfortable seats.

That’s about it.

Payload sucks.
Fit and finish really suck.

If price is the break point, I think I would go with Aerotrek.