AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

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TimTaylor
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Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article

Postby TimTaylor » Sun May 05, 2019 11:59 am

Useful load is what matters.
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Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article

Postby Type47 » Sun May 05, 2019 4:33 pm

My original thinking when I first heard about the Vashon was that they were making the same mistakes Cessna did with the 162. Heavy plane with old technology engine. It’s obvious to me that they are banking on a weight increase for light sport and that is taking longer than expected. Or they are actually involved in the talks so they are content to sell the planes in current form with the confidence in future changes.
Let’s face it. Even a dismal 200 pound increase in lsa weight rules turns this into a useful plane.
Many are hoping for more, but I think at least 200 is a safe bet.
Also, it looks like the engine is taking longer than hoped and, when ready, will make the Vashon a nice performer.
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Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article

Postby TimTaylor » Sun May 05, 2019 4:51 pm

The Cessna 162 is a great airplane. Many of us prefer the Continental engine vs Rotax. The 490 pound useful load is much more reasonable vs the 435 pound useful load of the Ranger.
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Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article

Postby Warmi » Sun May 05, 2019 5:26 pm

Type47 wrote:My original thinking when I first heard about the Vashon was that they were making the same mistakes Cessna did with the 162. Heavy plane with old technology engine. It’s obvious to me that they are banking on a weight increase for light sport and that is taking longer than expected. Or they are actually involved in the talks so they are content to sell the planes in current form with the confidence in future changes.
Let’s face it. Even a dismal 200 pound increase in lsa weight rules turns this into a useful plane.
Many are hoping for more, but I think at least 200 is a safe bet.
Also, it looks like the engine is taking longer than hoped and, when ready, will make the Vashon a nice performer.


The thing is - no matter how well design or innovative , a new engine will take many years before various issues and bugs are worked out of the system and you don’t want to be the one who is part of that process :D
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Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article

Postby Type47 » Sun May 05, 2019 6:29 pm

The thing is - no matter how well design or innovative , a new engine will take many years before various issues and bugs are worked out of the system and you don’t want to be the one who is part of that process :D


Quite right. However, coming from the automotive industry as a 35 plus year auto mechanic, I am amazed at the new clean sheet engines that are produced by car companies with little or no issues or bugs. Engineering and design of engines has become so common and proven that computer designed engines just seem to work.
Also, the Rotax is a good example of an engine that has been hugely successful and reliable right out of the chute. Even though it more resembles the engine in my sea doo than traditional aircraft engines.
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Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article

Postby drseti » Sun May 05, 2019 6:36 pm

Type47 wrote: Even though it more resembles the engine in my sea doo than traditional aircraft engines.


Really? Does your Seadoo have a 4 cylinder opposed, 4-stroke engine with liquid cooled heads, air cooled cylinders, a fixed gearbox, and dual ignition?
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Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article

Postby Type47 » Sun May 05, 2019 8:10 pm

Needle bearing rod ends, pressed together crankshafts, solid end rods, water cooled heads, solid state ignition, aluminum cylinders. Runs at 5000-6000 rpm.
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Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article

Postby Type47 » Sun May 05, 2019 8:15 pm

The possible new Vashon engine resembles a continental more than a Rotax.
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Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article

Postby Cub flyer » Sun May 05, 2019 8:43 pm

And that’s the rub here. I bought an early Jabiru engine, 1998, Touted at the time for reliability, fleet history and time before overhaul.

Many changes since then based on later fleet experience and knowledge. But... Did the early engines make it to TBO? They were advertised as making it but I’m not so sure.

Small volume companies, sales finance the development beyond the early prototype stage.

I’d like to see accelerated service testing so if I had one in a flight school running 300 hours per year I would not be quickly the highest time airframe and engine out there. At least get one airframe and engine to 500 or 1000 hours before they go up for sale to see what breaks.

I have had several AB experimental airplanes where I thought I was buying a quality well tested product but in the end as soon as I got them flying the “new model” was out with “fixes” to problems that were known with the prototypes. Bigger tails, structural changes, control system changes etc. Not retrofittable to the older airplanes. These are not product improvements with time but fixes for handling or structural issues that should have been done before any kits were sold.

Hopefully they are taking the approach to make sure it’s reliable and well tested. I’d like to see some new USA companies and thinking come into the market.
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Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article

Postby Type47 » Sun May 05, 2019 10:17 pm

The Jabiru is an interesting case study. I originally was a air cooled Vw mechanic so am drawn to the Jabiru engine. I wanted to love them but they seemed to ignore most of the lessons Vw mechanics new years ago. The problem with the cylinder head bolts in Vw cases was finally repaired in 1973 with case inserts and smaller diameter head bolts that would stretch rather than pull the threads out. Previously, the bolts had to be rolled threads rather than cut threads because the cut threads are known to work poorly in aluminum and magnesium.
Also, the Vw engines, because the cylinders are so close together, are very prone to distortion in the cylinders if the cooling tins are bent, missing, or installed improperly. This would lead to blowby and ring sealing problems. The Jab has the close cylinders but lack the deflectors to continue the cooling air around the bottom of the cylinders that all Vws have.
Motorav is right now developing a new engine based on the Vw and I asked the guy at their booth at Airventure last year about the cylinder tins missing from their engine and he had no clue what I was talking about.
It seems like these companies stubbornly refuse to do simple research and because of that, keep making the same mistakes over and over.
Maybe I am wrong.
It does seem that Rotax values input and has a reputation for acting on it quickly.
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Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article

Postby Warmi » Sun May 05, 2019 10:25 pm

Type47 .. do you do your own plane maintenance ?

Given your experience you certainly should :D Take some Rotax classes and maybe the LSAR class - combined with your experience and the fact that no one will take care of your plane better then you can ( since you are flying it ) - right there sounds like a winning combination.
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Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article

Postby Type47 » Sun May 05, 2019 10:43 pm

Warmi wrote:Type47 .. do you do your own plane maintenance ?

Given your experience you certainly should :D Take some Rotax classes and maybe the LSAR class - combined with your experience and the fact that no one will take care of your plane better then you can ( since you are flying it ) - right there sounds like a winning combination.


I took the LSRI course last year and have an appointment with the Dar this Wednesday to convert my Tecnam to Elsa.
I will probably take some Rotax classes and may go for LSRM too.
I am tempted sometimes to become a sport cfi too.
I am 56 and don’t really need another job or career, but if I were younger...
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Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article

Postby Cub flyer » Mon May 06, 2019 5:01 am

That’s exactly it. engineers and designers can get their heads stuck in the sand and not look around at what has thousands of hours of fleet history to see what works and can be improved on.

I just go ballistic when I see the same mistakes made over and over. Ultralights with no carb heat for example Kitfoxes with aluminum firewalls. We knew this was a problem back in the 1920’s or earlier.

The Vashon appears to have a good reasonably sized vertical and horizontal tail. I always wonder when tail sizes get doubled after the airplane design has been built for a few years. Seems like the need for this could be figured out with Prototype #1

I had good luck with the early Jabiru. But only because I made my own cowl and baffles after one flight with the stock fiberglass inlets. I made aluminum intercylinder baffles and normal baffle box on the engine top like a certified airplane. That fixed the problem and the engine was ok. They had in their instructions at the time the warranty was void if you did not use their scoops.

I’m hoping Vashon with a clean sheet design will have an engine that can work for them on floats. The O-200 I don’t think will do it with the wing area they have.
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Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article

Postby TimTaylor » Mon May 06, 2019 11:49 am

It's easy to be critical of other people's work.
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Re: AVweb Video on Vashon Ranger + Aviation Consumer Article

Postby FastEddieB » Mon May 06, 2019 3:32 pm

“It doesn’t take a chicken to know a bad egg!”
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