LSA Values Declining?

[drseti]

Depends on the fuel burn in cruise, Andy. See my my post above for the algorithm. IIRC, in the case of a 912 ULS powered aircraft burning 5 GPH in cruise, it comes to 420 pounds.

[Merlinspop]

What is the minimum useful load for an S-LSA?

The formula is:

An S-LSA is required to have a minimum useful load-this equation is found in ASTM F2245. This equation takes into account how many people and how thirsty the engine is.

Useful Load = # of seats x 190 lbs plus 1/2 the max continuous horsepower.

Example: Carbon Cub=(2 x 190) + (1/2 x 80). The minimum useful load for the Carbon Cub is 420 pounds.

This is why/how Cubcrafters is able to cram a 180HP engine up front. They chose to limit "max continuous" hp to 80. This is a placard limitation and all 180 horses are available for take off, climbs, hazard avoidance, etc. On the other hand, firewalling the throttle won't get you much other than more noise and higher fuel burns in a draggy airframe like that. Speed and efficiency is not what a carbon cub is about. It's about F-U-N.

I'd be surprised if many Carbon Cubs take off at legal weights...they are *really* weight limited at 1320lb.

Given that you can buy a kit that is part for part identical to the LSA and register it as a E-AB at up to 1865 pounds. Cubcrafters tested the wings and structures to better than utility category loads at 1865#. I believe the only worry a carbon cub owner has about taking off heavy is having a visitor on the ramp.

OTOH, I just played with the order form, and configured the way I would want one if I had the money to order one from the factory it would end up with an empty weight of right about 940# Add full fuel (144#) and me (220), and I'm under the max gross number. Granted, not by more than a peanut butter sandwich, but I'm under. 90+% of my flying would be solo, and if I did decide to go camping or something, I'd just pack light and leave some fuel off. Taking my son for a ride would mean we're limited to about an hour with reserve. If the mission was for more than an hour at time with a passenger, I'd have a different (or additional - hey, it's my fantasy!) plane (a Bristell).

[drseti]

Useful Load = # of seats x 190 lbs plus 1/2 the max continuous horsepower.

I'm pretty sure that is the old algorithm, Bruce. The new one (adopted this year?) was supposed to be based upon fuel burn at cruise settings, rather than HP. (Probably doesn't make a big difference in the resulting number). Is anybody here an ASTM member, who can access the latest revision of that standard?

[Merlinspop]

Useful Load = # of seats x 190 lbs plus 1/2 the max continuous horsepower.

I'm pretty sure that is the old algorithm, Bruce. The new one (adopted this year?) was supposed to be based upon fuel burn at cruise settings, rather than HP. (Probably doesn't make a big difference in the resulting number). Is anybody here an ASTM member, who can access the latest revision of that standard?

I'm sure it is old. I haven't seen the new one based on fuel burn. That would explain why the max empty wt on the CC went up 3 lbs recently.

[drseti]

That would explain why the max empty wt on the CC went up 3 lbs recently.

As I said, probably doesn't make a big difference.

[Merlinspop]

That would explain why the max empty wt on the CC went up 3 lbs recently.

As I said, probably doesn't make a big difference.

Might not, but makes sense to me as it reinforces and rewards efficiency. I was curious where those three pounds came from, though. Now I know.

[snaproll]

My Remos GX - Empty weight 750 lbs. Original empty weight was 702 lbs. before autopilot and chute were added.

[img[http://s42.photobucket.com/user/dstits/ ... e.jpg.html]

[MrLupin]

My Remos GX - Empty weight 750 lbs. Original empty weight was 702 lbs. before autopilot and chute were added.

[img[http://s42.photobucket.com/user/dstits/ ... e.jpg.html]

Took my check ride in one of those last Saturday. What a blast to fly! I want one. Want to lease it to me?

[CTLSi]

......

[snaproll]

My Remos GX - Empty weight 750 lbs. Original empty weight was 702 lbs. before autopilot and chute were added.

[img[http://s42.photobucket.com/user/dstits/ ... e.jpg.html]

Took my check ride in one of those last Saturday. What a blast to fly! I want one. Want to lease it to me?

Sorry, but not leasing out my bird... They are a blast to fly though.. VR.. Don

[MrLupin]

Sorry, but not leasing out my bird... They are a blast to fly though.. VR.. Don

No apologies necessary - I knew it was a very long shot. I've flown just a few different aircraft: Cessna 150, 172, Piper Archer, Piper Arrow and a Remos GX. I enjoyed the Remos more than any of the others and was no more crowded in the Remos than any of the others. I think only the 172 felt slightly roomier.

[snaproll]

My Remos GX - Empty weight 750 lbs. Original empty weight was 702 lbs. before autopilot and chute were added.

[img[http://s42.photobucket.com/user/dstits/ ... e.jpg.html]

Took my check ride in one of those last Saturday. What a blast to fly! I want one. Want to lease it to me?

The Remos is the exact same plane as the Flight Design CT except it has foldable wings. Remos fell on hard times a few years ago and nearly went bankrupt. Since the company has had angel investors save it and it continues to make product. They are fourth or so in the rankings of shipped units. Flight Design remains the leader.

The planes are all carbon fiber, made in Germany and can be equipped with the 912iS engine and all glass avionics.

Actually, the aircraft are quite different aerodynamically, both share carbon construction techniques, Remos is manufactured in Germany, and Flight Design in Crimea (now Russia instead of Ukraine). Both are good stable designs, Flight Design has been more successful in their business model and distribution, and Remos is producing but at a much lower rate than FD. FD provides better support and parts distribution. I would recommend either equally. Both are a joy to fly.

[3Dreaming]

Actually, the aircraft are quite different aerodynamically, both share carbon construction techniques, Remos is manufactured in Germany, and Flight Design in Crimea (now Russia instead of Ukraine). Both are good stable designs, Flight Design has been more successful in their business model and distribution, and Remos is producing but at a much lower rate than FD. FD provides better support and parts distribution. I would recommend either equally. Both are a joy to fly.

Actually the factory is in Kherson Ukraine, and north of Crimea in Ukraine proper. This was from Flight Design USA back in March. An Oskosh press release also stated that the factory that was not in a area being affected by the turmoil.

[CTLSi]

......

[snaproll]

Actually, the aircraft are quite different aerodynamically, both share carbon construction techniques, Remos is manufactured in Germany, and Flight Design in Crimea (now Russia instead of Ukraine). Both are good stable designs, Flight Design has been more successful in their business model and distribution, and Remos is producing but at a much lower rate than FD. FD provides better support and parts distribution. I would recommend either equally. Both are a joy to fly.

Actually the factory is in Kherson Ukraine, and north of Crimea in Ukraine proper. This was from Flight Design USA back in March. An Oskosh press release also stated that the factory that was not in a area being affected by the turmoil.

Good news... Hate to see politics screw up a good bird.. Thanks.. Don