LSA Values Declining?

[VL Roberts]

Good opinions.
It just felt like Vans was presenting the single display as "setup" and then shifted to more to a dual preference. Maybe it was just my take.
On the other hand, most of us will inevitably spend some time flying with a pilot buddy so it's nice to be able to give the right seat a primary display as well. Also dual displays are pretty indispensable if you truly want to share PIC responsibilities.

Can't recall if anyone has mentioned it, but with dual SkyView displays, there is automatic redundancy.
If either display fails, the remaining display will show PFD (a/s, alt, hdg and attitude) at 40% area, moving map at 40% area and engine data at 20% area. So, in essense, you lose nothing, although data is compacted at a reduced scale.
By default, engine data must always be shown, regardless of how many displays are operating. So, for instance, if you manually turn off the display with the engine data, or it failed unexpectedly, engine instrumentation would automatically transfer to the good side, without any pilot input. If a moving map were not selected by either side to begin with, the good display would then default to 50% PFD and 50% EMS (engine monitoring system).

The G300 (PFD+MFD) is also suppose to be redundant. However, one time while flying, shortly after purchase, I noticed both screens were frozen. No red X's or anything, just frozen. After landing and shutdown, aircraft was restarted and everything was normal. Over the next three years the G300 has operated as advertised, no problems what so ever.

So for me, redundancy is, as far as VFR flying, a chart, an AFD and a compass.

[dstclair]

I'm clearly from the 'Department of Redundancy Department' which is WAY overkill for VFR flying at 120kts or less. Perhaps I still harbor cloud busting dreams....

My Sting has a D100 with battery backup along with a compass and analog AI, T&B, Altimeter. Add to that a Garmin 795 with attitude (soon to be provided) by a GDL-39 3D with battery backup. Then I have my iPad and iPhone running Foreflight along with paper WACs in my map pockets. I also have no less than 3 GPS receivers (795, ADS-B and GDL-39).

As an aside, adding the GDL-39 3D basically turns my 795 into PFD less airspeed.

You NEED very little of this to fly low-n-slow -- it all comes down to what you want.

[designrs]

On anything but a brand-new or near-brand new aircraft (that is already setup exactly as you want), I'm starting to think like FastEddie... to go E-LSA and do whatever you want! Can't see myself begging or bribing a manufacturer for some simple mods.

[AJChenMPH]

So...do you need an LoA if you were to install certificated instruments into an S-LSA? I.e., if I dropped the money on an Aspen 1000 VFR PFD, I'd still need the LoA?

[drseti]

if I dropped the money on an Aspen 1000 VFR PFD, I'd still need the LoA?

It it's an SLSA, absolutely. The manufacturer has the final say on all modifications. In the case of an ELSA, you are essentially the manufacturer, so you have the final say.

[Wm.Ince]

On anything but a brand-new or near-brand new aircraft (that is already setup exactly as you want), I'm starting to think like FastEddie... to go E-LSA and do whatever you want! Can't see myself begging or bribing a manufacturer for some simple mods.

There are some drawbacks.
I have no firm data to support this, but from talking to many guys that have taken their airplanes from S-LSA to E-LSA, the general consensus seems to be it may hurt resale value and shrink the target market. I have been told that some perspective buyers will not even look or consider an experimental of any sorts, E-LSA or E-AB. I think those I've talked to make a valid point. It has to do with the perception of a manufacturer, not an individual, backing the aircraft with warranty, parts and maintenance support.

Another consideration may be liability and insurance.
I am very interested in to hear more comments from the community on this, as I am considering going E-LSA myself.

[AJChenMPH]

It it's an SLSA, absolutely. The manufacturer has the final say on all modifications. In the case of an ELSA, you are essentially the manufacturer, so you have the final say.

Got it...thanks.

[FastEddieB]

Converting to ELSA may adversely affect resale.

Or not - some might actually put a premium on one if they inclined to be experimental in any case.

Regardless, I don't worry about it - it will be what it will be.

In terms of insurance, mine actually went down on converting, mainly because they would only insure a hull value of $50k, not the $70k I had before. In any case its now about $950/yr.

[designrs]

Of course, it probably does not make sense to convert a nearly new S-LSA to E-LSA.
You want the factory and the value to hold.

Converting a somewhat older LSA to E-LSA might make sense:

You may want to do a lot of upgrades on as you see fit.
You can save money on maintence.
It's not an "expensive" plane to begin with.
By the time you want to sell your market will be "value buyers" who want a nice plane, minimum maintence costs, and minimum capital outlay.
Get in with the local EAA chapter and/or builders groups and there will probably be a whole bunch of prospective buyers that have no problem with an Experimental, especially a plane from someone that have known for a while.

Thoughts?

[CTLSi]

......

[MrMorden]

Also, experimentals are restricted where they can fly, they are not allowed to fly over congested areas without special permission.

Total fabrication. The only restriction is that if flying over a congested area, an experimental must fly in such a manner that "if a power unit were to fail, an emergency landing could be executed without due hazard to persons on the ground." In other words, the same way everybody should be flying over a congested area.

Some people actually enjoy working on and maintaining aircraft.

[CTLSi]

......

[MrMorden]

Also, experimentals are restricted where they can fly, they are not allowed to fly over congested areas without special permission.

Total fabrication. The only restriction is that if flying over a congested area, an experimental must fly in such a manner that "if a power unit were to fail, an emergency landing could be executed without due hazard to persons on the ground." In other words, the same way everybody should be flying over a congested area.

Some people actually enjoy working on and maintaining aircraft.

For the 14th time:

14 CFR 91.319 - Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.
(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that—
(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features.
(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway.

"Densely populated" is not the same as a "congested area." Those terms have specific meaning to the FAA, and are not the same thing.

The limitation is usually worded thusly for a particular aircraft:

"This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely populated areas unless directed by air traffic control, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the ground."

It's a non-limitation. Essentially as long as you can reasonably argue you have sufficient altitude to affect a landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the ground, you are fine.

[drseti]

(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway.

Not sure this applies to an ELSA, because it speaks to an "experimental certificate." An SLSA's document says "special airworthiness certificate, operating experimental light sport." Probably not the same thing. However...
Eddie, what do your ELSA's Operating Limitations say regarding densely populated areas or congested airways?

[FastEddieB]

Of course, it probably does not make sense to convert a nearly new S-LSA to E-LSA.

I believe a fair number of Carbon Cubs leave the factory certified as ELSA's at the purchaser's request.