I WOULD NEVER DO THIS, but ya see, I've got this friend....

[bitten192]

Mt Shasta close off my right wing tip. That OK??

That depends, Ernie. Are you flying inverted?

Between central Oregon and northern California you can fly either way around Mt Shasta. My point is, if you are VFR on top and you can see a mountain poking out of the cloud, you are VFR within sight of land aren't you?

Too subtle??



Ernie

[drseti]

you are VFR within sight of land aren't you?

OK, joking aside... that's a serious question that deserves a serious answer. I'm pretty sure the intent of the "visual contact with ground" rule is that, in the event of an engine failure, you'll be able to see where you're doing the emergency landing. With Shasta sticking up through the clouds, you can't (unless you opt to land on top of Shasta, which probably isn't a very good option).

Of course, with a medical certificate, it's perfectly legal to fly VFR above clouds, even if you can't see Shasta. I'm not sure I understand why choosing not to renew my medical makes me somehow less safe in this situation, but that's what the regs seem to imply.

[FrankR]

My plane doesn't have an Attitude Indicator ot a Turn Indicator. No gyro.

Not safe to fly above.

But what should I do if I get stuck up there?

I think I will point south (N-S turning error); get set up moderately slowly; and lower the throttle. Keep it stable during decent; nothing drastic; more rudder than stick. Keep the ball centered.

Watch the compass, ALT, VSI, Airspeed. Look for stability. Expect turbulence.

Am I right?

[drseti]

Not safe to fly above.

I tend to agree.

But what should I do if I get stuck up there?

In the movie The Karate Kid (the Ralph Macchio original, not the Jaden Smith remake), Mr. Miagi (Pat Morita) confronts the whole gang of thugs. They throw punches and kicks, but never land one. Afterward, Daniel asks "what's the secret?" Miagi replies, "secret is not be there."

The best way not to get stuck on top is to not be there. Do a 180 turn the minute you see clouds starting to form below you. That said...

I think I will point south (N-S turning error); get set up moderately slowly; and lower the throttle. Keep it stable during decent; nothing drastic; more rudder than stick. Keep the ball centered.

Watch the compass, ALT, VSI, Airspeed. Look for stability. Expect turbulence.

Am I right?

All sounds quite reasonable. Now, go find yourself an instrument instructor, go up with foggles or a hood, and practice this (in VMC, of course) to see how well it works. With experience comes proficiency. Just don't start to think that the limited training makes you an instrument pilot!

[cogito]

According to one of the FAAST seminars I attended, 178 seconds was the average time a VFR pilot remained alive after entering IMC.

[jnmeade]

Point East or West - less compass error than either North or South.
Pull power back. Trim for 500 fpm descent.
|Hands off yoke - steer with rudders.

[designrs]

According to one of the FAAST seminars I attended, 178 seconds was the average time a VFR pilot remained alive after entering IMC.

I've read dozens of accident reports and articles on the subject... but I still don't get it! How is it THAT easy to to become disoriented in IMC?? I mean 178 seconds and most can't keep it straight, level and right side up looking at a few "simple" instruments??

Guess you have to experience it... safely with an instructor... real IMC or simulated.

[Jack Tyler]

"...I still don't get it! How is it THAT easy to to become disoriented in IMC?? I mean 178 seconds and most can't keep it straight, level and right side up looking at a few "simple" instruments??"

For an in-depth understanding of what the problem usually is, I'd suggest reading up - in a flight-related manual such as Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge, p. 16-5) - on the the physiology of the inner ear. Basically, "the body can't distinguish between acceleration forces due to gravity and those resulting from maneuvering the a/c and that leads to sensory illusions and false impressions of the a/c's orientation and movement." IOW the same system that allows you to exhibit amazing balance & movement sub-consciously when you are viewing the outside world quite suddenly starts lying to you.

But on a practical level, here's what may be hanging you up: You are imagining flying in IMC in a relatively stable a/c and thinking 'how can this stability, which I'm sustaining with my own careful inputs, ultimately become uncontrolled flight?' The answer is that, during that 178 seconds (or whatever), what's stable becomes slightly less stable (too much of an input, an air pocket, then a small over-correction, etc.) and then less stable still, and during this series of incrementally small but collectively significant events, you lack the ability to recognize and return to that original stability. Add to this the inability (due to anxiety, lack of practice) of some pilots to correct extreme angles in the proper sequence (e.g. not rolling the wings level in a severe rolling dive before pulling back on the stick), and one might not make it the "full 178 seconds". Don't think about that first 10 seconds. Think about where things might stand 80 or 90 seconds in...

[dstclair]

The 353hr private pilot lasted just under 5 minutes in the example I cited earlier in this thread. From the report:

The controller also reminded the pilot that he was still at 1,500 feet and should be at 4,000 feet. The pilot responded that he was climbing; however the controller informed the pilot that he was in fact descending. There were no further radio communications with the pilot.

In my early flying days, before getting my IFR rating, I had two instances where I learned that you body was wrong and the instruments were correct.

1) When cutting through a 2000 ft cloud layer with a CFI during my primary training, I came out on top in 45 degree bank. My CFI had just calmly watched me enter a bank a little at a time then used it as a teaching moment. Never forgot the lesson.

2) I was flying VFR on a gray day under an overcast layer over Lake Pontchartrain going to Lakefront. In contact with approach, following instructions and found that I was in an increasing slight bank aligned with the artificial horizon. I corrected the plane then kept my eyes IN the plane and essentially flew instruments for the straight in approach.

As was pretty much unanamimous in this thread, don't fly in or through the clouds intentionally unless you have the proper rating and clearance.

[zaitcev]

Of course, with a medical certificate, it's perfectly legal to fly VFR above clouds, even if you can't see Shasta. I'm not sure I understand why choosing not to renew my medical makes me somehow less safe in this situation, but that's what the regs seem to imply.

It could be just a historical artifact, e.g. if they wrote PP rules today, they'd cut our VFR-on-top prileges too. Or, if we do not consider PPs who let medicals lapse, SPs do not get the same amount of training on instruments as PPs. Most of them know just enough of instruments to survive short encounters with IMC, like I did, for example.

Personally I think that there's a huge degree of diffrence between the hard IMC that pro have to tackle every day in northeast and punching through a marine layer. If that Mooney pilot in Watsonville committed to being illegal and climbed through the cloud bank, he'd still be alive instead of getting into the dumbest kind of departure stall imaginable. But since teaching people "light" IMC is guaranteed to increase accidents through misjudgement, we have a blank prohibition. Which is safe, I suppose, with all the right asses covered.

[designrs]

Good comments and replies from all. Thank You!
Especially enlightening is the concept of IMC loss of control being ADDITIVE and INCREMENTIAL deviation... a little bit of deviation... a little bit more... a bit more... and THEN seconds later... out of control.

Maybe it's one thing that gets overlooked... pitch, bank, airspeed, etc.

This fills in some blanks that is often missing from most of the educational writings.

[Jim Stewart]

According to one of the FAAST seminars I attended, 178 seconds was the average time a VFR pilot remained alive after entering IMC.

Yeah. I heard the same thing solemnly repeated in Light Sport ground school. I'm not sure the statement doesn't do more harm than good.

After I gave up on light sport training, my hangermate ATP/CFII offered to get me through my pp checkride if I'd pass the knowledge test and install an HSI in my airplane. I did and he did. The 3+ hours of hood time was both enlightening and enjoyable. He never mentioned the 178 seconds, just remarked that I handled the simulated instrument training very well. He delighted in giving me some aggressive "recovery from unusual attitude" exercises that I handled well. I also aced the hood work on the pp checkride.

That said, would I deliberately enter IMC? Hell no. I think that most of the FAR's are written with the blood of victims and I'll do my best to obey them. I also don't want to hit another plane flying honest IFR. And I don't have the avionics redundancy that a true IFR plane needs.

If I unintentionally enter IMC, will I panic? Hell no. I'll fly the airplane the way I was taught. I'll contact approach and let them know so I don't fly into someone. I'll use all the resources I have to get safely on the ground, knowing that I can fly with my instruments longer than 178 seconds without falling out of the sky.

[jnmeade]

Aviate, navigate, communicate. If you find yourself in IMC and are not well prepared and equipped for it, keep your plane right side up first. One may find that is a challenge. Staying away from towers and mountains comes next. Then, as one gets things under control, talk to ATC. Simply tuning the radio can create enough distraction to cause problems if you have vertigo or the leans and are trying to stay level. Switch one digit at a time, if necessary. Never switch two frequencies at once (so you always go back to a good frequency).

[zaitcev]

I had a bad creeping vertigo once. The fix was to keep the instrument scan running and never relax it. So, I had to tune the radio digit-by-digit: set one, look at AI, TB, DG, set another one, look back - oops already 30 deg, fix it up, back to radio, etc. etc.. I was wet like a mouse after about half an hour of that work.

[drseti]

Anyone following this thread might notice that it's been moved to a new topic. That's right, we now have a Safety Corner forum on SportPilotTalk.com! Thanks, Gerald, for creating it (and to Jack for suggesting it). I'll move a few other threads to Safety Corner, once I figure out which ones belong here.