I was reading Steve Lindell's concern about the Crash in Florida. I also own a PiperSport S/N 004 and anytime a plane crashes especially one like I and others own there certainly is reason for concern when the crash has no apparent reason. But maybe there is a reason thet we should consider.
From my personal investigation into the crash I find a few things very disturbing. The young pilot was picking up the plane for a friend who left it in Florida for the winter. He flew all day on the airlines to get to Florida about 10:30 at night. He picked up the plane and departed a little before midnight in a DAY VFR ONLY airplane. Is it possible that he had never flown a PiperSport before? After being tired from flying all day and departing at midnight, did he fall asleep and the plane pitched over into a dive which is reported over 4000 FPM decent. Did he ever wake up. He was found nearly a mile from the crash site. What happened to the seat and shoulder harness. How did he get ejected from the plane? And last, being unfamiliar with the PiperSport, was he aware of the BRS parachute which wasn't activated (but at that speed it wouldn't matter anyway). If he had activated it, it would have ripped off. And last but not least, how did the canopy become unlocked to where he was sucked out of the plane.
As a retired test pilot I think about these things and this is why I wanted to share them with you. I love our PiperSport and personally do not feel the crash hed anything to do with the integraty of the plane (or at least we hope so). It will be interesting to see what the NTSB concludes to be the cause.
PiperSport Crash in Florida
Moderator: drseti
PiperSport Crash in Florida
I own PiperSport S/N 004, Flight Test Engineer (ret), DER (ret), A&PIA, IRMT, Contributing Editor for Piper Flyer Magazine
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Fla Piper Sport Crash
I don't think there will be a conclusive answer to this one but the course of events might include some or all of the following:
1) The pilot must have been out of the belts. There is no way to be ejected if you are buckled in.
2) It's night and the canopy will look latched even if unlocked. It's advised to give it a good push with the hand before takeoff to double check.
3) It's also possible to loop the headset wires around the canopy latch (the jack is right below the latch), if you then unbuckled while at cruise, to get something behind the seat, it would be easy to pop the latch with the headphone wires and have an inflight canopy open. If you are kneeling in the seat, grabbing for a bag, this would be a bad situation.
Obviously it could be mechanical failure or a medical emergency but niether explains the ejection. You can fly the plane to a safe landing with an open canopy but you cannot close it until after landing. You should never attempt to close it while in flight, reduce speed to 70 knots and head for a runway. Gentle turns, no slips.
SL
1) The pilot must have been out of the belts. There is no way to be ejected if you are buckled in.
2) It's night and the canopy will look latched even if unlocked. It's advised to give it a good push with the hand before takeoff to double check.
3) It's also possible to loop the headset wires around the canopy latch (the jack is right below the latch), if you then unbuckled while at cruise, to get something behind the seat, it would be easy to pop the latch with the headphone wires and have an inflight canopy open. If you are kneeling in the seat, grabbing for a bag, this would be a bad situation.
Obviously it could be mechanical failure or a medical emergency but niether explains the ejection. You can fly the plane to a safe landing with an open canopy but you cannot close it until after landing. You should never attempt to close it while in flight, reduce speed to 70 knots and head for a runway. Gentle turns, no slips.
SL
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Fla Piper Sport Crash
One other thing I noted about inflight canopy opening: the upward angle of the hatch can be significant. The leading edge of the open canopy will then foul the BRS port. Activation of the BRS in response to a canopy unlatch might cause a very bad hair day. Note, this is how it looks to me; not tested, not simulated, no science on my part. Fleming Aviation posted a good video showing just how large the angle can become. Hold up the canopy a foot above closure and judge for yourself.
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According to the Czech Sport People, the canopy will only raise a few inches in flight if left unlatched. Even as an old test pilot, I don't think I want to find out for sure. I will just make sure I latch mine before take off.
I own PiperSport S/N 004, Flight Test Engineer (ret), DER (ret), A&PIA, IRMT, Contributing Editor for Piper Flyer Magazine
Fleming Video
That was a great demonstration. I'm so glad to posted it. I think our friends at Czech Sport Aircraft didn't really test the canopy as fleming did.
Well done. At least now we have an true idea as to what to expect if it happens. It did show that the plane will still fly and as always, the most important lesson we were taught-fly the plane first, then fix the problem which is this case is to land the plane and latch the canopy
Well done. At least now we have an true idea as to what to expect if it happens. It did show that the plane will still fly and as always, the most important lesson we were taught-fly the plane first, then fix the problem which is this case is to land the plane and latch the canopy
I own PiperSport S/N 004, Flight Test Engineer (ret), DER (ret), A&PIA, IRMT, Contributing Editor for Piper Flyer Magazine
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That was very interesting. Especially since, when doing my Flight Review about two weeks ago, I did it all with the canopy of a friend's Grumman partially open. (Sliding canopy's are a real blessing in hot/humid Florida summers). I'll be passing this video link along to the RV-12 forum at VAF as a couple of them have forgotten to latch their canopies before takeoff and I'll be interested to hear if their experience 'looked like' this Sport Cruiser's behavior (significant opening, partial closing on asymetrical airflow in a bank, etc.). Come to that, I wonder if this is similar to any of the tip-up RV canopies when failing to latch.
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org
PiperSport Crash in Florida
Jack from what I see in the video, the canopy does rise higher than I would have thought especially after talking to the Czech's. By the same token, it appears that even with it open it did not become a safety of flight issue. My speculation regarding the crash is the same as Larry's. If the pilot removed his seat belts and turned around in the seat to try to latch the canopy, it is possible the plane pitched over and he was sucked out (or ejected) from the plane. I'm not sure there will ever be a positive answer as to what happened.
I own PiperSport S/N 004, Flight Test Engineer (ret), DER (ret), A&PIA, IRMT, Contributing Editor for Piper Flyer Magazine
I dont have any experience with the PiperSport, wish i did! Simply an FYI question, is the latch in the PiperSport that far back that you can't reach over your shoulder? Am I understanding that is the only way to secure it again is to come out of your belts? Horrible to have to learn lessons from accidents but makes me worry that much less about the Hobbs and more about my checklists when I'm out at the field.
Thanks,
Thanks,
Drew
PP-ASEL
PP-ASEL
PiperSport Crash in Florida
Hello Drew,
The PiperSport/SportCruiser has a T handle located in the center divider between the two seats that pivits from shoulder height (unlatched) to approximately opposite your elbow when latched. It has two cam latches on each side of the canopy to engage locking pins.The piperSport has a fourpoint shoulder harness seat belt that when bucked up it is extremely difficult to move around if not next to impossible to latch the canopy. I have found that if I can't latch the canopy with my elbow, I have to release the harness to be able to reach the handle.
When it is very hot outside I have to taxi with the canopy open resting on my arm which isn't that bad but very difficult to latch the canopy. So during taxi I don't fasten my belt. Prior to take off I alway close the canopy and push up on it to make sure it is fully latched. Then the harness seat belt gets bucked and I'm off for another great flight.
So based on what I'm saying you can see why any speculation as to what happend is difficult and only speculation.
The PiperSport/SportCruiser has a T handle located in the center divider between the two seats that pivits from shoulder height (unlatched) to approximately opposite your elbow when latched. It has two cam latches on each side of the canopy to engage locking pins.The piperSport has a fourpoint shoulder harness seat belt that when bucked up it is extremely difficult to move around if not next to impossible to latch the canopy. I have found that if I can't latch the canopy with my elbow, I have to release the harness to be able to reach the handle.
When it is very hot outside I have to taxi with the canopy open resting on my arm which isn't that bad but very difficult to latch the canopy. So during taxi I don't fasten my belt. Prior to take off I alway close the canopy and push up on it to make sure it is fully latched. Then the harness seat belt gets bucked and I'm off for another great flight.
So based on what I'm saying you can see why any speculation as to what happend is difficult and only speculation.
I own PiperSport S/N 004, Flight Test Engineer (ret), DER (ret), A&PIA, IRMT, Contributing Editor for Piper Flyer Magazine
Re: PiperSport Crash in Florida
Remember according to the regulations 91.107 you have to tell yourself to fasten your seatbelt for the airplane to be moved on the ground.Dick Russ wrote:Hello Drew,
The PiperSport/SportCruiser has a T handle located in the center divider between the two seats that pivits from shoulder height (unlatched) to approximately opposite your elbow when latched. It has two cam latches on each side of the canopy to engage locking pins.The piperSport has a fourpoint shoulder harness seat belt that when bucked up it is extremely difficult to move around if not next to impossible to latch the canopy. I have found that if I can't latch the canopy with my elbow, I have to release the harness to be able to reach the handle.
When it is very hot outside I have to taxi with the canopy open resting on my arm which isn't that bad but very difficult to latch the canopy. So during taxi I don't fasten my belt. Prior to take off I alway close the canopy and push up on it to make sure it is fully latched. Then the harness seat belt gets bucked and I'm off for another great flight.
So based on what I'm saying you can see why any speculation as to what happend is difficult and only speculation.
Re: PiperSport Crash in Florida
Also according to FAR 91.107, if you're PIC, you have to brief yourself on how to use the seatbelt!3Dreaming wrote:Remember according to the regulations 91.107 you have to tell yourself to fasten your seatbelt for the airplane to be moved on the ground.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
PiperSport Crash in Florida
Well I guess I should have made myself (and acton) clearer especially living with the FAA regulations for the past 50 years. When I said I taxi without the belt fastened I should have said without the shouldetr harness fastened. But due to the design Of the PiperSport Harness it was just easier to say seat belt rather than go into the details of not having the shoulder harness on while taxiing. Thank you for pointing out your knowledge of the FAR's.
I own PiperSport S/N 004, Flight Test Engineer (ret), DER (ret), A&PIA, IRMT, Contributing Editor for Piper Flyer Magazine
Interesting that we are discussing seatbelts today. This just in from AOPA:
I've just read the proposal, and it deals with child restraints, not what we've been discussing. Still, interesting timing...The FAA, responding to a request from the National Transportation Safety Board, has published notice of a proposed clarification of how it interprets seat-belt and seating requirements of the federal aviation regulations for general aviation.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US