in the blink of an eye

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yozz25
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Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:32 pm
Location: vegas

in the blink of an eye

Post by yozz25 »

When I went up in the remos this week, we did power on stalls.

This is something I'm not crazy about in this craft, since you're almost upside down when the stall kicks in.

Well, I'm sitting there with full power on, pulling on stick, going up and up, tapping my fingers with hand on chin waiting and waiting, when all of a sudden, in the blink of an eye, the left side took an abrupt dip downward. We went like a brick to the left, in a flash.

That woke me up!!!!!!!.

Man that was fast, and was a crude wake up call on how fast something can happen. I can't even remember how the craft straigtened out. That's how startled I was. CFI, perhaps asleep, didn't bat an eye. I have no idea who or if anyone straightened us out. Perhaps the plane did it?

Perhaps we entered a spin, don't really know. Anywhere near the ground, recovery is nil IMHO.

Things do happen fast, wow.

yozz
:shock:
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CharlieTango
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Post by CharlieTango »

yozz,

take your hand off your chin and put it on the throttle.

things happen fast and when that nose is pointed at the ground you will want to close the throttle before you overspeed :D
yozz25
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Location: vegas

wow

Post by yozz25 »

If that happened on takeoff, I can't even visualize a recovery.

Yes, need to pull back on throttle, if there is a throttle left to pull back on.

You would find just my hand, a bit on the fried side, on throttle.

Near the ground, there is no recovery. The lesson is, don't get the nose up so high.

Now I need spin recovery training, better take some valium before I do that.

yozz :P
3Dreaming
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Post by 3Dreaming »

Make sure you keep the ball centered. If you keep it coordinated it most likely will not drop a wing. Also with the power to weight on these light sport airplane maybe using a little less than full power for power on stalls is a good idea. Also remember to reduce power and slow down to between 50-60kts before adding power will help in not having the nose quite so high. Tom
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bryancobb
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In Trim?

Post by bryancobb »

+1 on 3Ddreaming.
A certified aircraft is not suppose to do that if it's in trim when the stall-break happens.
While you're goin up-n-up and tapping your chin, watch the ball and keep it CENTERED...better yet, have your instructor tape an orange piece of yarn on the outside of the windscreen before you go fly.
That orange string is about 10X as effective as a turn coordinator or ball in the tube inclinometer, at keeping you in trim while looking outside.
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Manufacturing Engineer II, Meggitt Airframe Systems, Fuel Systems & Composites Group
Cartersville, Ga
[email protected]
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bryancobb
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Full power stall

Post by bryancobb »

Section VIII(C) of the PTS says it's ok to perform this maneuver with throttle settings as low as 65% to avoid excessive nose high atitudes. (30 deg. = Aerobatics and you're suppose to wear a parachute)

I THOUGHT there was a maximum amount of altitude loss allowed, but I can't find it.

Just be aware, the REASON for this maneuver is to keep you from getting killed when you are distracted during takeoff and climbout. If you are HUA and not paying attention during climbout...

...YOU NEED TO RECOGNIZE THE STALL BEFORE IT HAPPENS, OR IF YOU FAIL TO, YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO RECOVER BEFORE YOUR ABSOLUTE ALTITUDE IS A NEGATIVE NUMBER!
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Manufacturing Engineer II, Meggitt Airframe Systems, Fuel Systems & Composites Group
Cartersville, Ga
[email protected]
yozz25
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Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:32 pm
Location: vegas

ok

Post by yozz25 »

The chin tapping was a sort of tongue and cheek to be honest, keeping it straight is what I was actually trying to do, but it gets mushy.

I'm actually looking up and waiting, but I agree that there is no reason to take this craft at full power at such a critical angle.

The CFI down in PHx area didn't even want to do the full power stall on this plane, she said it's ridiculous or something to that effect.

To me, when you have mush for controls, your nose is way up, anything can happen, that was my point. It was in the blink of an eye.

The lesson to me, unless I'm corrected, is if power fails on take off, the natural tendency is to pull back hard I guess, then wammo, wing banks fast and hard, and you're history. I would guess the best is to put nose level on lack of power and choose where to land straight ahead if possible.

Still learning.

yozz
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Pawlander
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Post by Pawlander »

Yozz, does the Remos have an audible stall warning?

The Remos I test-flew in had a Dynon EFIS. The Dynon in my CTLS displays a red/yellow/green angle of attack indicator and an audible "Stall, Stall, Stall" alert. Just wondering if Remos is similarly configured.
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CharlieTango
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Re: ok

Post by CharlieTango »

yozz25 wrote: The lesson to me, unless I'm corrected, is if power fails on take off, the natural tendency is to pull back hard I guess, then wammo, wing banks fast and hard, and you're history. I would guess the best is to put nose level on lack of power and choose where to land straight ahead if possible.

yozz
loss of power on departure is highly dangerous. talk over this with your instructors and train for it. learn to make your natural tendency to lower the nose.

know your best glide configuration and speed. know your minimum sink speed as well.

nose level without power will decay your speed till it mush stalls or worse.
Jim Stewart
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Nose level

Post by Jim Stewart »

I tried holding nose level with idle power in my CT. After what seemed like forever, I ended up with nose level, stick almost all the way back with very heavy back pressure, airspeed at 45 knots, vertical airspeed at -400 to -500 fpm and no particular bad manners or tendencies. YMMV.
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bryancobb
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I get it!

Post by bryancobb »

Hey yozz!

Congrats on getting started toward your goal. I caught your Leno Act on tapping. I fully understood what you meant.

I have a question. Your thread started about doing departure stalls (like when taking off). Then as you got deeper in the thread, you started talking about losing an engine on takeoff.

You do understand that a stall has NOTHING to do with the engine, right?
When a car stalls, the engine has quit. When a plane stalls, the wing has quit producing lift. You can die while climbing out after takeoff, by stalling, with the engine running perfectly, even at full power.

Now if you DO have an engine failure on climbout after takeoff, it is very very very very important to keep the wing from stalling. The only way to do that is to get the nose down instantly, way down. The only way to get this hammered into your psyche, so that it is AUTOMATIC, is to practice it with your instructor.
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Manufacturing Engineer II, Meggitt Airframe Systems, Fuel Systems & Composites Group
Cartersville, Ga
[email protected]
yozz25
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Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:32 pm
Location: vegas

thanks guys

Post by yozz25 »

Yes I understand what can go wrong on takeoff, engine failure, get that nose down and find a place and go for it.

And yes I well understand a stall, can happen anytime, excessive angle of attack.

When I first tried remos in phx, the instructor said there is no stall siren, or warning. Hmmm, I'm not sure if this one here in vegas has it or not.

But the full throttle stall on this thing is ridiculous, it's not like the warrior where the horn goes off with little effect if any. You guys are right, power stall should be partial on the throttle, not full.

I think the CFI was not too familiar with the remos, since it is hardly used. I peak at the schedule, it's not yet popular. I may be the first one in this school to get the sports license, perhaps the last, who knows.

I think I've simulated just about everything already, one instructor after climbout actually pulled the throttle down and said "where ya gonna land now"? All I saw was a busy interstate with a service road, chose the service road.

I think I'm stalled out for this week, now for some touch and goes.

yozz :oops:
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scottj
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Power on Stalls

Post by scottj »

Yozz, the light sports in question (Remos, CT) do not need full power for practicing power on stalls. Use 65% or less.

Forget looking at the instruments and trying see the ball. Instead, look outside, find a high cloud, keep the nose of the airplane pointed at it using your feet... FEEL the ball, FEEL the rudder in your butt, and you will keep the nose pointed forward and the wings level. (Sounds like a Star Wars mantra... FEEL the Force)

The only way a wing will drop is if you let the ball slide out. Use your feet on the rudders, not your hand on the stick, to keep it level.

Read the old book "Stick and Rudder." By Langewiesche. Nothing has changed with technology and glass.

Feet dance on the pedals, keep the nose straight.
Wings level.
Nose to the horizon.
Power as needed.... remove if pointed at the ground, add if add the sky in a stall.
Fly the airplane.

Has your instructor taught how to prevent a Spin? (Don't stall, keep the ball centered.)

Has your instructor taught you how to get out of a Spin? PARE
Power to Idle
Ailerons to neutral or centered
Rudder against the rotation (Step on the ball)
Elevator forward and back to center.
Smooth and Quickly 1 2 3 4 PARE

Scott
Flight training begins on the ground, not in the air.℠
2011 FAASTeam Representative of the Year, Great Lakes Region
http://www.SticknRudder.com
yozz25
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Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:32 pm
Location: vegas

thanks guys

Post by yozz25 »

Thanks guys.

Yes, spin training is needed. I'm trying to analyze why things happen.

What I learned.

This craft should not be brought to full throttle on power ons.

Keep plane as straight as possible using outside reference.

Control with feet.

The pare thing sounds good out of what I read, get rid of power, ailerons neutral or straight, rudder to the ball then elevators back.

It seems to be a systematic method of getting the uncontrolled back to controlled by using steps at stabilizing each aspect.

Knock out power.
normalize the wing via normalizing, or straightening ailerons, flat wing.
step on ball, I guess pushes craft out of slip, craft should now be more stable.
push stick forward, guess to add some speed, then back to level flight.

I guess it's important, at least for me, to analyze what is happenning in a spin, and how inputs re-stabilize situation.

Spin seems to be a total stall, both wings, but one more than other, throwing craft into rapid uncontrolled slip.

Now to go practice it.

First have to clean my shorts, thinging of this has an effect.

yozz
:shock:
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bryancobb
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Everything Done Right

Post by bryancobb »

Yozz,
Here's what you should be thinking when you and your CFI are doing POWER-ON STALLS (Departure Stalls).

NOT SPINS. If you spin, you have failed the task.

You should focus on RECOGNIZING the impending stall just before it occurs (based on all the clues that the FAA texts cover)
1) Mushy controls
2) Buffetting feel on the controls
3) Changing noises
4) More and more rudder required as you get slower and steeper nose up.

Review Chapter 4
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/airc ... a-3of7.pdf

The GOAL is to learn to PREVENT a stall BEFORE it occurs, without the help of instruments, by flying by the seat of your pants.

Let's say for instance, you have just taken off to leave Oshkosh and there's 10 airplanes in the air within 100 ft of you and you're distracted and you're nervous and you're climbing too steep, and you don't realize your throttle has crept out to only half throttle because you didn't friction it, and you don't have time to look down cuz you may hit somebody, and you don't notice you're about to stall, and you're low, and you realize you have lost your wallet. AND BAM! STALL!

The hope is... through reading, understanding, and training and practice with your instructor, YOU CAN PREVENT THIS, but if you fail to prevent it, then at least RECOVER VERY QUICKLY WITHOUT SPINNING AND WITH MINIMUM ALTITUDE LOSS.
BC
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Manufacturing Engineer II, Meggitt Airframe Systems, Fuel Systems & Composites Group
Cartersville, Ga
[email protected]
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