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Re: CTLS down in Greenville, TX
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:28 am
by CharlieTango
MovingOn wrote:Shutting down an engine while flying a single engine airplane is poor judgement and stupid.
You sir have a closed mind. Crossing the sierra at 16,000' and descending into Bishop with the engine out for the last 50 miles is fun, builds skills and saves gas. The Europa can be registered as a motor glider, if you use the longer wings. When it comes to shutting down the engine to soar the wave or just to save gas there is no real difference in risk.
Stupid says you, flying hundreds of miles without fuel has real merit in my mind.
I just looked, the Europa is registered as a glider but it has a bigger motor than my CT and doesn't glide as well with the short wings. Since it is a glider it seems pretty reasonable to fly it engine out but the truth is, with the short wings, 914, higher stall and mono gear it is far more risky to dead stick.
Re: CTLS down in Greenville, TX
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:30 am
by MrMorden
MovingOn wrote:A discussion in which you have not been involved. A debate between Roger and myself about the pros and cons of shutting down an engine to practice engine out emergencies. He expresses the opinion that somehow, if you don't shut down your engine you are a less skilled pilot.
I guess you missed my posts. If you guys want to have a conversation about this where others aren't welcomed to comment, open a private conversation. Don't post off-topic comments in a public thread which you helped hijack, and then tell me I'm not welcome to comment.
Re: CTLS down in Greenville, TX
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:31 am
by FastEddieB
MrMorden wrote:If the engine does not restart, your statement to the NTSB/FAA would be:
"The engine failed, I set up for an emergency landing then tried unsuccessfully for a restart."
How could they prove otherwise?
In addition, it might not help your case if they have someone halfway decent at internet searches that comes up with this very post!
Re: CTLS down in Greenville, TX
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:33 am
by MovingOn
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Re: CTLS down in Greenville, TX
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:34 am
by MrMorden
CharlieTango wrote:
You sir have a closed mind. Crossing the sierra at 16,000' and descending into Bishop with the engine out for the last 50 miles is fun, builds skills and saves gas. The Europa can be registered as a motor glider, if you use the longer wings. When it comes to shutting down the engine to soar the wave or just to save gas there is no real difference in risk.
That's an interesting point...is it just as poor judgment to shut down the engine in a motor glider? If not, what makes it different? Is it okay if the glide ratio is over X? Why? After all, it can have the exact same problems.
Re: CTLS down in Greenville, TX
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:37 am
by MrMorden
FastEddieB wrote:MrMorden wrote:If the engine does not restart, your statement to the NTSB/FAA would be:
"The engine failed, I set up for an emergency landing then tried unsuccessfully for a restart."
How could they prove otherwise?
In addition, it might not help your case if they have someone halfway decent at internet searches that comes up with this very post!
So do you think I'm now going to jail if I *ever* have an engine out accident, because I once posted a thought experiment in a hypothetical thread on the internet? Especially considering my very first comment on this subject is that I would not be comfortable turning the engine off in flight?
Re: CTLS down in Greenville, TX
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:38 am
by MovingOn
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Re: CTLS down in Greenville, TX
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:43 am
by MrMorden
MovingOn wrote:
Totally irrelevant to the debate we have been having. Why don't you raise the issue of hot air balloons? That's just as relevant.
A motorglider is identical in structure to any other single engine airplane. The only real difference is the wing, and that doesn't even HAVE to be a difference, there are plenty of high lift non-glider single engine airplanes. The same is not true for balloons.
Re: CTLS down in Greenville, TX
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:45 am
by CharlieTango
MovingOn wrote:Totally irrelevant to the debate we have been having. Why don't you raise the issue of hot air balloons? That's just as relevant.
My post was a direct response to this quote:
MovingOn wrote:Shutting down an engine while flying a single engine airplane is poor judgement and stupid.
I posted the photo to show that this glider is quite like an LSA only heavier, faster, mono-geared and short winged. It is more plane than my CT or the skycatcher you rent.
Re: CTLS down in Greenville, TX
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:53 am
by dstclair
I'm pretty sure I'm not going to convince either side to change their stance but.....
This is a classic risk/reward scenario. Many will view the risk of practicing complete engine out landings worth the reward of gained knowledge and skill in the event of a in flight engine out. Others will view the risk is higher and/or the reward is lower since they may view a simulated engine out is good enough practice.
The chances of an engine completely failing in flight is very low so my personal view is that the slight increased reward in shutting the engine down does not merit the risk. I also have personal experience with an engine failure in flight and had never done anything other than simulated engine failure when training/practicing. I was able to land my aircraft exactly where I wanted and we walked away from it. Practicing this procedure with the engine off would have made zero difference.
Re: CTLS down in Greenville, TX
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:09 pm
by 3Dreaming
MovingOn wrote:You guys do whatever you want. Personally, I will continue to abide by the rules and follow prescribed techniques and methods. I have been able to do this for 50+ years with absolutely no issues. Flying is not the time or place to demonstrate creativity or machismo. I believe I am 100 percent an expert pilot and just as skilled as most others, not 75 percent as implied above. Shutting down an engine while flying a single engine airplane is poor judgement and stupid.
Re: CTLS down in Greenville, TX
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:50 pm
by FastEddieB
MrMorden wrote:
So do you think I'm now going to jail if I *ever* have an engine out accident, because I once posted a thought experiment in a hypothetical thread on the internet? Especially considering my very first comment on this subject is that I would not be comfortable turning the engine off in flight?
Of course not.
There's a fine line between being circumspect and paranoia.
But virtually everything we post online lives forever, to be dredged up at the most inopportune time.
That's all I'm suggesting.
Re: CTLS down in Greenville, TX
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:53 pm
by MrMorden
FastEddieB wrote:MrMorden wrote:
So do you think I'm now going to jail if I *ever* have an engine out accident, because I once posted a thought experiment in a hypothetical thread on the internet? Especially considering my very first comment on this subject is that I would not be comfortable turning the engine off in flight?
Of course not.
There's a fine line between being circumspect and paranoia.
But virtually everything we post online lives forever, to be dredged up at the most inopportune time.
That's all I'm suggesting.
Fair enough.
Re: CTLS down in Greenville, TX
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:58 pm
by MovingOn
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Re: CTLS down in Greenville, TX
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:43 pm
by 3Dreaming
MovingOn wrote:3Dreaming wrote:MovingOn wrote:You guys do whatever you want. Personally, I will continue to abide by the rules and follow prescribed techniques and methods. I have been able to do this for 50+ years with absolutely no issues. Flying is not the time or place to demonstrate creativity or machismo. I believe I am 100 percent an expert pilot and just as skilled as most others, not 75 percent as implied above. Shutting down an engine while flying a single engine airplane is poor judgement and stupid.
That's right. That, however, doesn't mean I can't make mistakes, just as you can, or always have all the correct answers. "Expert: a person who has special skill or knowledge in some particular field." Many of us here would probably have what might be equivalent to a PhD in flying and relevant experience.
While I am just 50 years old I have been around aviation all of my adult life as a pilot and mechanic. I have met many people involved with aviation over the years, and have come to the conclusion that there are 2 kinds of pilots. Those who know they are not experts, and those who think they are.