8710 Question

Paul Hamilton is one of the first persons to become a DPE (Designated Pilot Examiner) for sport pilots. As a full-time author and sport pilot expert, he writes books and produces DVD's for Aviation Supplies and Academics (ASA). Now Paul has graciously agreed to answer your questions here. Thanks Paul! For more information about Paul, please visit www.Paul-Hamilton.com and www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com.

Moderators: drseti, Paul Hamilton

JJ Campbell
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri May 31, 2019 4:10 pm

8710 Question

Postby JJ Campbell » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:09 am

On my solo practice days I fly to a usually deserted airport 22nm from my home airport. I do a couple of landings and then before heading back to my home airport, I practice various maneuvers. I list this time as cross-country in my logbook.

Should I show all this time in the cross country and cross country PIC columns or only list the time that counts towards my required cross country solo?

In Dr. Shure's excellent DPE video he says to only list the hours pertinent to the rating you are seeking (SP ASEL). My ultimate goal is to transition to Gyroplane as soon as I get my FW ticket. I have a few hours of gyro training. Would it hurt to go ahead and list this on the 8710?

TimTaylor
Posts: 1475
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:17 pm

Re: 8710 Question

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:53 am

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/regulations/logging-cross-country-flight-time/

Since your 22nm destination airport does not meet the requirements for cross-country time for a Sport Pilot certificate, I would not include that time as cross-country on the 8710 form.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane
Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea
Flight Instructor Airplane Single & Multiengine
Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument
BS Engineering NC State
MBA Wisconsin

JJ Campbell
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri May 31, 2019 4:10 pm

Re: 8710 Question

Postby JJ Campbell » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:02 pm

TimTaylor wrote:https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/regulations/logging-cross-country-flight-time/

Since your 22nm destination airport does not meet the requirements for cross-country time for a Sport Pilot certificate, I would not include that time as cross-country on the 8710 form.

The cross-country solo requirement does not specify and required hours just distance and the 8710 does not ask for any distance information. The DPE will need to confirm that my cross country solo met the requirements by looking at the entry in my logbook. Since my trips to the neighborhood airport meet the requirement for solo cross country why not have those hours reflected in the 8710? Leaving them out would be like leaving out any hours above the 20 hours required because they were not needed.

It seems to me that if the FAA wanted to fully document the cross country solo on the 8710 they would have asked for the information needed i.e. straight-line distance for each leg of the trip.

chicagorandy
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:39 pm

Re: 8710 Question

Postby chicagorandy » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:47 pm

I'm a little confused. Are you training for a Sport Pilot license? If so, does your CFI say that 22 miles qualifies as Sport Pilot cross-country even though the reg clearly states 25?

That would be your answer I'm thinkin'.
"Don't believe everything you read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln

TimTaylor
Posts: 1475
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:17 pm

Re: 8710 Question

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:50 pm

JJ Campbell wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/regulations/logging-cross-country-flight-time/

Since your 22nm destination airport does not meet the requirements for cross-country time for a Sport Pilot certificate, I would not include that time as cross-country on the 8710 form.

The cross-country solo requirement does not specify and required hours just distance and the 8710 does not ask for any distance information. The DPE will need to confirm that my cross country solo met the requirements by looking at the entry in my logbook. Since my trips to the neighborhood airport meet the requirement for solo cross country why not have those hours reflected in the 8710? Leaving them out would be like leaving out any hours above the 20 hours required because they were not needed.

It seems to me that if the FAA wanted to fully document the cross country solo on the 8710 they would have asked for the information needed i.e. straight-line distance for each leg of the trip.


Well then, why did you ask the question? Yes, you can log it as cross-country. However, it does not qualify as cross-country toward your required cross-country for Sport Pilot. You could include it or exclude it from your 8710. I would exclude it and just show it under total time. Do it however you choose.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane
Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea
Flight Instructor Airplane Single & Multiengine
Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument
BS Engineering NC State
MBA Wisconsin

JJ Campbell
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri May 31, 2019 4:10 pm

Re: 8710 Question

Postby JJ Campbell » Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:02 pm

chicagorandy wrote:I'm a little confused. Are you training for a Sport Pilot license? If so, does your CFI say that 22 miles qualifies as Sport Pilot cross-country even though the reg clearly states 25?

That would be your answer I'm thinkin'.

Yes, SP license and I know what the requirement is for the cross country - it does not include time just distance. My cross country had 3 legs 2 slightly over 25nm and one was 22 for a total distance of 79nm.

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 6335
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: 8710 Question

Postby drseti » Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:51 pm

JJ Campbell wrote: I know what the requirement is for the cross country - it does not include time just distance.


Actually, that's not entirely correct. FAR 61.313 (a)(1)(i) specifies a requirement of 2 hours of cross country flight training. That is a time requirement, would have to be dual, and it's up to the CFI to determine which flights constitute XC instruction. Then, under 61.313(a)(1)(ii) you are required to have logged one solo XC flight of at least 75 nm, with full stop landings at a minimum of two points and one leg exceeding 25 nm. Those are the distance requirements. As long as you've had the required dual (and the appropriate XC endorsements for each flight), then any subsequent solo flights can be logged as XC, but only if they involve a full stop landing at the destination airport, and a straight line distance of greater than 25 nm.

Here's an actual case in point. In the mid 1980s, you may recall that Jeanna Yeager and Dick Rutan flew around the world, nonstop and non-refueled, in the Voyager aircraft (designed and built by Dick's brother Burt). That 8-day adventure had to be logged as a local flight, because it took off from, and landed at, Edward's AFB, with no full-stop landing more than 25 nm away!

Three other things to remember: if your aircraft has a Vh greater than 87 knots, you must have received and logged dual instruction in flight solely by reference to flight instruments, prior to embarking on solo XC. And to log dual XC, you must hold a pilot certificate. (That is, any long dual flights that predate the issue of your student pilot certificate can't be logged as XC, regardless of distance, landings, legs, etc.) And finally, no flight counts as XC unless it involves some kind of navigation between points (that is, pilotage, ded reckoning, or electronic system).
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

TimTaylor
Posts: 1475
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:17 pm

Re: 8710 Question

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:18 pm

So, if you get lost just tooling around and land at an airport 25 nm from where you started, you can't log that as cross-country.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane
Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea
Flight Instructor Airplane Single & Multiengine
Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument
BS Engineering NC State
MBA Wisconsin

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 6335
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: 8710 Question

Postby drseti » Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:42 pm

TimTaylor wrote:So, if you get lost just tooling around and land at an airport 25 nm from where you started, you can't log that as cross-country.


Not unless you navigated to where you got lost.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

JJ Campbell
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri May 31, 2019 4:10 pm

Re: 8710 Question

Postby JJ Campbell » Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:50 pm

drseti wrote: …then any subsequent solo flights can be logged as XC, but only if they involve a full stop landing at the destination airport, and a straight line distance of greater than 25 nm.

That is interesting and a bit odd. Do you happen to know the FAR citation for this bit of esoterica?

TimTaylor
Posts: 1475
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:17 pm

Re: 8710 Question

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:22 pm

It's in 61.1:

(iii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate (except for powered parachute privileges), time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that—

(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(B) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

There is nothing esoteric about it. It's part of the FAR's that a Sport Pilot candidate should know.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane
Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea
Flight Instructor Airplane Single & Multiengine
Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument
BS Engineering NC State
MBA Wisconsin

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 6335
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: 8710 Question

Postby drseti » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:26 pm

JJ Campbell wrote: Do you happen to know the FAR citation for this bit of esoterica?


Two citations, actually. The landing requirement is in 61.1(b)(3)(i)(C), and the distance requirement comes from 61.1(b)(3)(iii)(A).

Also FYI, the requirement for navigation is in 61.1(b)(3)(i)(D).
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 6335
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: 8710 Question

Postby drseti » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:30 pm

For an hour and a half of related FAR esoteric, see my webinar "Get Out of Dodge!" at http://avsport.org/webinars/videos/xc.mp4
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 6335
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: 8710 Question

Postby drseti » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:38 pm

JJ Campbell wrote:On my solo practice days I fly to a usually deserted airport 22nm from my home airport. I do a couple of landings and then before heading back to my home airport, I practice various maneuvers.


This is completely appropriate, as long as you have complied with the requirements of FAR 61.93(b)(1)(i) thru(v). However,

I list this time as cross-country in my logbook.
[/quote]

But you shouldn't, since according to 61.1(b)(3)(iii)(A), it has to be more than 25 nm for a Sport Pilot student to log as XC.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

TimTaylor
Posts: 1475
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:17 pm

Re: 8710 Question

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:38 pm

In other words, you can't fly back and forth across your airport landing at airports 12.5 miles on either side and count that as cross-country toward a Sport Pilot certificate.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane
Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea
Flight Instructor Airplane Single & Multiengine
Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument
BS Engineering NC State
MBA Wisconsin


Return to “Ask The Examiner”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests