It describes what is required. You should read it.
If your aircraft does not have a current and correct documentation of weight and balance, it is not airworthy and illegal to fly.
Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
Moderator: drseti
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
Retired from flying.
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
Like I said before what rules to follow depends on the airplane.
For a SLSA you must follow 91.327, (d) Each person operating an aircraft issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category must operate the aircraft in accordance with the aircraft's operating instructions, including any provisions for necessary operating equipment specified in the aircraft's equipment list.
The CTLS AOI state that it is the responsibility of the owner to have the airplane weighed after any changes or repairs, and it states this data must be recorded in the aircraft logbook. It also states that the flight mass and connected center of gravity must be determined prior to each flight. Other aircraft AOI may be different.
For any aircraft 91.9 (a) applies. You must comply with the operating limitations. Gross weight and center of gravity are limitations you must comply with. How can you comply with the limitation if you don't have an up to date valid starting point for your computations? That right there is the basis for needing an up to date weight and balance for the airplane with the current equipment installed.
For the weight and balance needing to be in the airplane that is a little trickier. If the airplane is required to have a AFM by CFR 21.5, then the W&B must be in the airplane. If not you still must have a W&B, but it can be with the aircraft records.
For a SLSA you must follow 91.327, (d) Each person operating an aircraft issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category must operate the aircraft in accordance with the aircraft's operating instructions, including any provisions for necessary operating equipment specified in the aircraft's equipment list.
The CTLS AOI state that it is the responsibility of the owner to have the airplane weighed after any changes or repairs, and it states this data must be recorded in the aircraft logbook. It also states that the flight mass and connected center of gravity must be determined prior to each flight. Other aircraft AOI may be different.
For any aircraft 91.9 (a) applies. You must comply with the operating limitations. Gross weight and center of gravity are limitations you must comply with. How can you comply with the limitation if you don't have an up to date valid starting point for your computations? That right there is the basis for needing an up to date weight and balance for the airplane with the current equipment installed.
For the weight and balance needing to be in the airplane that is a little trickier. If the airplane is required to have a AFM by CFR 21.5, then the W&B must be in the airplane. If not you still must have a W&B, but it can be with the aircraft records.
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
I have read it. It says an equipment change requires a change to the POH/AFM W&B info. It does not cite an FAR or AC requiring this. It also says nothing about a W&B document being required for each flight.TimTaylor wrote:It describes what is required. You should read it.
If your aircraft does not have a current and correct documentation of weight and balance, it is not airworthy and illegal to fly.
Again, this is an FAA training document, not a regulatory document. If it's not in an FAR, AC, or letter of interpretation, it's not a requirement.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
3Dreaming wrote:Like I said before what rules to follow depends on the airplane.
For a SLSA you must follow 91.327, (d) Each person operating an aircraft issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category must operate the aircraft in accordance with the aircraft's operating instructions, including any provisions for necessary operating equipment specified in the aircraft's equipment list.
The CTLS AOI state that it is the responsibility of the owner to have the airplane weighed after any changes or repairs, and it states this data must be recorded in the aircraft logbook. It also states that the flight mass and connected center of gravity must be determined prior to each flight. Other aircraft AOI may be different.
For any aircraft 91.9 (a) applies. You must comply with the operating limitations. Gross weight and center of gravity are limitations you must comply with. How can you comply with the limitation if you don't have an up to date valid starting point for your computations? That right there is the basis for needing an up to date weight and balance for the airplane with the current equipment installed.
For the weight and balance needing to be in the airplane that is a little trickier. If the airplane is required to have a AFM by CFR 21.5, then the W&B must be in the airplane. If not you still must have a W&B, but it can be with the aircraft records.
Retired from flying.
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
So it's up to the SLSA manufacturer to decide...that makes sense in the ASTM Universe. In the CTLS case, it says you have to determine W&B before each flight. It doesn't say you have to document that anywhere. I can't find any language in my POH other than explaining how to calculate W&B.TimTaylor wrote:3Dreaming wrote:Like I said before what rules to follow depends on the airplane.
For a SLSA you must follow 91.327, (d) Each person operating an aircraft issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category must operate the aircraft in accordance with the aircraft's operating instructions, including any provisions for necessary operating equipment specified in the aircraft's equipment list.
The CTLS AOI state that it is the responsibility of the owner to have the airplane weighed after any changes or repairs, and it states this data must be recorded in the aircraft logbook. It also states that the flight mass and connected center of gravity must be determined prior to each flight. Other aircraft AOI may be different.
For any aircraft 91.9 (a) applies. You must comply with the operating limitations. Gross weight and center of gravity are limitations you must comply with. How can you comply with the limitation if you don't have an up to date valid starting point for your computations? That right there is the basis for needing an up to date weight and balance for the airplane with the current equipment installed.
For the weight and balance needing to be in the airplane that is a little trickier. If the airplane is required to have a AFM by CFR 21.5, then the W&B must be in the airplane. If not you still must have a W&B, but it can be with the aircraft records.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
You are still confusing the weight and balance requirements for aircraft certification and to maintain airworthy condition with the weight and balance calculations a pilot should do before a flight. They are two different things. There is no requirement for you, the pilot, to document your flight weight and balance based on aircraft loading. There is a requirement for your airplane to have a current and accurate weight and balance document based on it's certification plus any additions, deletions, or modifications, etc. If you don't have that, how do you do any weight and balance calculations before a flight?
Retired from flying.
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
I'm not confused. That's what I've been saying about pilot and per flight requirements. But regarding updated W&B for the aircraft, I don't see any requirement other than the Part 23 requirement that a W&B/equipment list document be provided by the factory. Can you tell me where an updated W&B document with an equipment change is required, other than for an SLSA where the manufacture POH requires it? If such a requirement exists, if the installation is less than one pound then a new W&B not required, though an updated equipment list would be, if the requirement exists.TimTaylor wrote:You are still confusing the weight and balance requirements for aircraft certification and to maintain airworthy condition with the weight and balance calculations a pilot should do before a flight. They are two different things. There is no requirement for you, the pilot, to document your flight weight and balance based on aircraft loading. There is a requirement for your airplane to have a current and accurate weight and balance document based on it's certification plus any additions, deletions, or modifications, etc. If you don't have that, how do you do any weight and balance calculations before a flight?
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
From Andy:
From Tom:In the CTLS case, it says you have to determine W&B before each flight. It doesn't say you have to document that anywhere. I can't find any language in my POH other than explaining how to calculate W&B.
I believe Tom is saying there is a CTLS requirement to document and log W&B after changes.The CTLS AOI state that it is the responsibility of the owner to have the airplane weighed after any changes or repairs, and it states this data must be recorded in the aircraft logbook. It also states that the flight mass and connected center of gravity must be determined prior to each flight. Other aircraft AOI may be different.
dave
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
What he said is airplane *weight* must be documented in the logbook, and that the CG must be calculated before each flight. It doesn't say the calculated CG has to be documented.dstclair wrote:From Andy:From Tom:In the CTLS case, it says you have to determine W&B before each flight. It doesn't say you have to document that anywhere. I can't find any language in my POH other than explaining how to calculate W&B.I believe Tom is saying there is a CTLS requirement to document and log W&B after changes.The CTLS AOI state that it is the responsibility of the owner to have the airplane weighed after any changes or repairs, and it states this data must be recorded in the aircraft logbook. It also states that the flight mass and connected center of gravity must be determined prior to each flight. Other aircraft AOI may be different.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
Andy, here you go. Look at Note 1.
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... LE/7g1.PDF
I am sure this is not the only aircraft with this requirement.
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... LE/7g1.PDF
I am sure this is not the only aircraft with this requirement.
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
Sure, but we're trying to determine what the FAA requires, and not an individual manufacturer...3Dreaming wrote:Andy, here you go. Look at Note 1.
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... LE/7g1.PDF
I am sure this is not the only aircraft with this requirement.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
CFR 43.5 (c) If a repair or an alteration results in any change in the aircraft operating limitations or flight data contained in the approved aircraft flight manual, those operating limitations or flight data are appropriately revised and set forth as prescribed in §91.9 of this chapter.
I think empty weight and empty weight CG would be considered flight data.
I think empty weight and empty weight CG would be considered flight data.
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
In this case the FAA requires just what Note 1 says. That is a FAA document, and a FAA requirement for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate for that aircraft. If you do not comply with that requirement, and all others contained in the TCDS the FAA issued airworthiness certificate will become invalid.MrMorden wrote:Sure, but we're trying to determine what the FAA requires, and not an individual manufacturer...3Dreaming wrote:Andy, here you go. Look at Note 1.
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... LE/7g1.PDF
I am sure this is not the only aircraft with this requirement.
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
Retired from flying.
Re: Removing Wheel Pants and W&B
Not regulatory.TimTaylor wrote:https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... 8083-1.pdf
Bill Ince
LSRI
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator
LSRI
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator