CFI Sport = Impotence !

[comperini]

Would the pilot be legal to fly a non LSA aircraft. I don't think the FAA has even considered this one yet.

A flight review is a flight review. Doesn't matter whether it was given by a subpart H or K instructor. The subpart K's limitation is that he can only peform flight reviews in an LSA.

[bryancobb]

The "regulators" who composed the sport pilot FAR's, intended for there to be a seamless path from Sport Pilot to ATP. Input from all the EAA, AOPA, and the flying public was considered. The NPRM's all included it. The final adopted rule included it.
THEN...the way I understand it, some investigative reporter wrote the legal department at the FAA about it several years after the sport regs were in effect, and the letter from the FAA legal department, threw out al of the step-by-step procedures which the FAA has had in place for years, for drafting and enacting changes in the FAS's. The legal department flushed all the input from the EAA,AOPA, and the flying public. They unilaterally interpreted the FAR's.

I suppose the argument can be made that the "regulators" act as Congress and write le laws, while the Legal Department acts as The Supreme Court and interprets the written laws.

I guess "Congress" needs to rewrite the laws to get what they intended.

BC

[comperini]

THEN...the way I understand it, some investigative reporter wrote the legal department at the FAA about it several years after the sport regs were in effect, and the letter from the FAA legal department, threw out al of the step-by-step procedures...

What you are most likely referring to, is this response from the FAA, which was generated last year:

http://www.121five.com/admin/FeatureArt ... esheet.pdf

An "investigative reporter" (using that term loosely) asked the FAA to clarify whether or not flight instruction given by a subpart K instructor, counted toward private.

Flight Reviews are not in question though. They count.

[scottj]

Yes, because the flight review was given in an airplane for which the instructor was legal in.

[AZPilot]

Well,
Here's the reasons I went Subpartk K.

There's no way to sugar-coat it. I have little patience for the narcissistic, affluent, know-it-all types that make up a significant portion of the non-ultralight crowd. These folks walk, talk, and take instruction like they already know everything. They typically don't hang out at the airport. They drive up in their shiny Jag that someone else washed for them. They EXPECT the FBO emplyees to top off their tanks before they drive up the next time. And they BETTER NOT get a drop of that blue gas on their wing.

MY airport friends are the ex-ultralight and Experimental folks. A band of brothers and sisters. We HANG OUT at the airport for the fellowship. We go flying in groups and formations. Loan each other gas, oil, and parts. We help each other enjoy aviation. We are typically humble and take instruction well. Most have years of building and flying RC under their belt and REALLY UNDERSTAND AVIATION well.

I took my CFI Checkride with an examiner who was one of our ultralight crowd who has a Flightstar that he bought new and now has over 3000 hours on it. 2500 hours of that was DUAL.

These are all the PRIMARY reasons. The secondary reasons... I'm 49, overweight, sit at a computer all day designing pressure vessels. My dad died of heart disease. My older brother had a heart attack. I went through Army Flight school in 1987, at 26 years old, and have kept a 1st or 2nd Class Medical since. I owned a cetified helicopter for 6 years http://www.airliners.net/photo/Brantly- ... 73ad76426d which pretty much was my ultimate aviation dream. At my last physical, my AME told me my blood pressure was on its' way up like most 50 yr old fatsos. I just decided "I'm through before I get denied." I don't want to get a special issuance. I LOVE the Cessna 162. I want to teach skinny students in it. I'm REALLY rusty on IFR and I have no interest in getting current for a CFI checkride.

Maybe you can see... Sport Pilot CFI is just my size!
Does that answer your questions.

When I was in the FBO biz, we actually had a couple of guys that expected our line crew to pull their airplanes out of THEIR hangar and fuel it, and return it to the hangar when they returned from their flight.

They also had no interest in paying for the service.

Ah, the stories I could tell you.

I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle over the student upgrade path. Just explain that they are still getting good quality flight experience that counts towards total time, but
just can't be legally counted as dual towards further ratings.

I doubt that you will have a hard sell.

Happy Flying

[bryancobb]

I think, the FAR uses the term "Authorized Instructor" when describing who can conduct a flight review. Since we have established that a Sport Pilot CFI is not an "Authorized Instructor" for meeting dual instruction requirements for anything but a Sport Pilot Rating...
A Flight Review conducted by a Sport Pilot CFI, cannot be counted as a Flight Review for operations above the Sport Pilot License. I.E. According to FAA Lawyers, a licensed Private Pilot who wishes to continue to fly as a Private Pilot MUST do his Flight Review with a Subpart H instructor!

The Lawyer's letter, first page, where he refers to 61.413(f), quotes the FAR's to say that one of the privileges of the Sport CFI is to "PROVIDE TRAINING AND LOG BOOK ENDORSEMENTS FOR A FLIGHT REVIEW OR OPERATING PRIVILEGE FOR A SPORT PILOT."
BC

[scottj]

I highly suggest that you call the local FSDO and ask the question. They are here to help. Instructors and Students or licensed Pilots should not be afraid to call them and ask a question.

[comperini]

The Lawyer's letter, first page, where he refers to 61.413(f), quotes the FAR's to say that one of the privileges of the Sport CFI is to "PROVIDE TRAINING AND LOG BOOK ENDORSEMENTS FOR A FLIGHT REVIEW OR OPERATING PRIVILEGE FOR A SPORT PILOT."
BC

AFS-610 and the EAA don't support your position (yes, I know you will find contradicting FAQ pages on the EAA site).

Please decipher your quote from 61.413(f).

Is it: "for a flight review or operating privilege for a sport pilot" (one privilege, all in quotes)

or is it: "for a flight review" or "operating privilege for a sport pilot" (two privileges, with each privilege on either side of the word "or")?

[bryancobb]

A "FLIGHT REVIEW FOR A SPORT PILOT"

OR

A "PRIVILEGE FOR A SPORT PILOT"

That's what the lawyer says.

A Flight Review for a Private Pilot CANNOT be done by a Sport CFI
A Priviledge canot be added to a Private Piot's privileges by a Sport CFI.

I.E.--- A Sport CFI gives a Private Pilot a checkout in a tailwheel Kitfox and endorses his logbook for Light Sport Tailwheel Privileges.
That Private Pilot CANNOT then go fly a SuperCUB without getting a Subpart H CFI to give him tailwheel training and a logbook endorsement to be PIC in a tailwheel airplane.

BC

[bryancobb]

"AFS-610 and the EAA don't support your position"

When's the last time you called 610 and asked?
This is all new to me too!
When I heard this crap about that lawer's letter, I didn't believe it!
I immediately called AFS-610 and they sent me the letter in comperini's link.
They made it very clear to me. A Sport CFI cannot do anything (instructional-wise) to help a Recreational Pilot all the way up to an ATP,
meet ANY of the FAR requirements that they have to meet.

I am a little "Miffed" because you and I both know, that is not how it was presented or enacted.

[comperini]

I think you should let EAA know their information is wrong then.

http://sportpilot.org/questions/afmviewfaq.asp?faqid=69
http://sportpilot.org/questions/afmview ... ?faqid=922

Also, let AFS-610 know. Their response was:

I would think the word " or " is used as a separator. A flight review
or operating privilege for a sport pilot. endorsing the student's logbook for operating privileges is not mentioned in 61.413(f) this is in 61.413(a)

All Sport, Recreational, Private, Commercial and ATP pilots have sport
privileges.So a sport pilot instructor can give a flight review to any of these pilots as long as it is in a light sport aircraft and within the privileges and limitations of the instructor certificate. This would be the same as an ATP pilot having Private pilot Balloon privileges doing a flight review in a balloon.

Richard Michaels
Aviation Safety Inspector
FAA, AFS-610
Light Sport Aviation Branch

[comperini]

"AFS-610 and the EAA don't support your position"

When's the last time you called 610 and asked?

When this very topic came up about a year ago. My previous post (sent before I saw your last response), includes 610's response (which basically says that since all "higher" certificate holders already have sport pilot privileges, that's the basis by which the flight review counts). I also have responses from the EAA, who agree with this position.

I am a little "Miffed" because you and I both know, that is not how it was presented or enacted.

Amen. This proves how often the regulations can contradict each other. Clearly the regulations were easier to interpret, when (up until 2004), there was only "one kind" of instructor, the subpart H.

[bryancobb]

An ATP, Commercial, Private, or Recreational Pilot CAN exercise Sport Pilot Privileges and fly, with or without a current medical in a Light Sport Airplane. It does not require him to do anything except get in a LSA and go takeoff.
A Sport CFI CAN give this pilot a flight review for Sport Privileges, if he needs one, and endorse his logbook, so long as the review is in a LSA.

After this Flight Review, the Pilot CANNOT fly any aircraft except a LSA until he gets another Flight Review from a Subpart H CFI.

[comperini]

A "FLIGHT REVIEW FOR A SPORT PILOT"

OR

A "PRIVILEGE FOR A SPORT PILOT"

That's what the lawyer says.

Is that your interpretation of that letter, or are you quoting it? I don't see the phrase "flight review for a sport pilot" in that letter anywhere. Did I miss it?

That letter is addressing the "can subpart K training count toward private". I don't see it talking about flight reviews at all, with the exception of quoting 61.413(f) word for word... which is the basis of my question on what the wording of that sentence really means.

I guess we agree to disagree.

[drseti]

Would the pilot be legal to fly a non LSA aircraft.

Can't imagine why not. A flight review is a flight review. Nowhere in the FARs does it say what kind of flight instructor you need to take one from. Only real limitation on the CFI-SP is the restriction on the kind of aircraft he/she can instruct in. A private pilot or above, with a medical, is still free to take a flight review in an LSA, as long as it's the proper category and class. And, if it's taken in an LSA, clearly it can be signed off by an appropriately rated (i.e., LSA) flight instructor.

As a general rule, if the FARs don't explicitly prohibit something, isn't it allowed?