Collapse in my CTSW alerion and trim

ussyorktown · Post by **ussyorktown** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:11 am

Something weird.
At the trailing edge of my port side aileron the surface has collapsed along an 18 inch line about 3 inches inboard. It has collapsed to a lesser extent on the underside. Kind of like it has been squeezed together at the trailing edge of the aileron. You can see the bumps from apparently the struts inside. Just noticed it a month ago and mechanic told me to tell Flight Design right away. I told them and they asked for pictures (sent yesterday).
I part outside but mechanic says he's never seen this on planes that are parked in baking sun in Arizona and here in Oregon it doesn't get that many sunny days and surely not lately.
Anyone see any such thing?
Oh yeah, there is also a collapse the size of a silver dollor or more in the trim tab.

roger lee · Post by **roger lee** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:41 am

I have seen it 2-3 times, both on the aileron and stab. It is not the sun, it is water (Usually acidic) and moisture that gets inside that didn't drain out properly and causes the Rochell foam to shrink. I have dealt with this a few times. If the surface is still hard it is okay and only a cosmetic issue with the owner. If it turns soft then it needs attention. The hard recessed area can be built back up and painted and is not a flight issue.

I am a CT service center and I do live in Tucson, AZ with lots of sun.

ct4me · Post by **ct4me** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:10 pm

I'd guess moisture, too. The aircraft I've seen with this issue was not hangar'd and came from a wet climate. The plane seemed to have some corrosion/rust on metal parts, too. Hmmmm, in your case, maybe the moisture is fuel?
I've seen plenty of CTs in AZ without any deformation, where hangars get to 100+ for months at a time, with many days 115+. And the inside of a nice tin hangar is worse.
If fixing is necessary, I'd love to hear what is done, and the cost.

ussyorktown · Post by **ussyorktown** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:52 pm

I sent pictures to flight design and told them that this was a "Breach of the Warranty of Merchantability" meaning, that when you buy a new airplane no other airplane has its arliron and trim tab collapse and it would 'not pass in the industry without objection'". (/s/ Dan, attorney at law)
They haven't responded to that demand for new parts and cost to have mechanic change them. I would think that they are good people and want to sell a lot more ctsw's and new C4s so they will gladly not oppose my very reasonable request.

<p>

ct4me · Post by **ct4me** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:48 pm

I, personally, wouldn't have invoked lawspeak so quickly. My experience with Flight Design is that they have been very fair and reasonable. I had a loose nose gear and they replaced it, and paid for the service, even though I was out of warranty. They decided that a firewall blanket was a good thing, and paid most of the cost for all older aircraft. That included $1000 towards the cost of installation. They found a way to improve the front shock, and sent it out for free. They sent out improved springs for the rear control surfaces for free. I'm aware several instances where out-of-warranty things were fixed for free.
Imagine the horror of being a small mfgr of aircraft, in a down economy, struggling to keep a skeleton staff in place. Yet FD has been doing it, and still answering the phones and responding to questions and requests for service/parts.
There's a good chance they'll work with you on the problem, if it is one. Yes, it's not right cosmetically, but does it affect flightworthiness?
BTW... you've had your CT for several months... just wondering how you could have missed this in pre-flight... no disrespect meant, just wonderin'.

roger lee · Post by **roger lee** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:24 pm

FD is closed until Monday for the 4th holiday. You won't hear from them until after that. they have been closed since July 3rd.

What year was this plane Mfg?
From the picture of the wing it looks to be an 06 or 07.
From your post I take it you do not know the cause and neither does the mechanic?

You may want to try the nice approach first since your way out of warranty and legally your not covered and a lawyer threatening them won't get you any further. If they take that aileron back and cut it open and find water damage you may also have issues legally for any type of claim and recovery. water damage would fall on the owner and wasted money on the lawyer too. It is water damage that I have seen cause this in the past.

If it's less than 2 years old and not been left out in the rain and sun 24/7 then FD will most likely help. They do a good job of helping people even when it's not FD's fault.

ussyorktown · Post by **ussyorktown** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:06 pm

I only mentioned the Warranty of Merchantability because when my oil pressure went bad they said, "its out of warranty but we'll send you a new one anyway" I was afraid that they take a hard approach with something more expensive.
It is NOT out of warranty as they have breached the warranty of merchantability and warranty for a particular purpose.
I shall pussy foot till further notice.
My Rotex guy did not know the cause but other posters here seemed to have nailed it...water inside and then it deforms the aleron.
I did see it pre-flight a week ago but thought that it had no affect performance. I then coincidentally met with my Rotex Mom (he treats my ctsw like his baby) and he was grately concerned and said he wouldn't touch our baby till I got this resolved with FD.
It was built in May 2007. Bad luck so far; seller gave it to me w/o any tie downs for the winds and suggested I just use the flap joints. My instructor said BS to that and I got new ones from FD and screwed them in to where they were before (rust marks on wing).
Then two flat tires.
Then, oil temp was out and erratic.
Then oil pressure is gone.
The radio did not transmit all the way to the tower when I first got her.
NOW, this.
Damn I love this plane. Why does she treat me so mean?

Jack Tyler · Post by **Jack Tyler** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:28 am

My two cents:
-- the trailing edge (rear chord area) of an air foil is relevant to the performance of the air foil. I sure don't agree that the deformation shown in the pics of the aileron's trailing edge is unimportant to the performance of the airfoil.
-- have you noticed any trim changes during the period of your ownership? That might help you identify when the deformation occurred...or evolved significantly enough to begin affecting aileron performance. And that might be quite relevant (see next point).
-- since it appears likely (multiple other similar reports covered in the previous posts) that the failure is due to the hygroscopic nature of the composite material, then it's also likely that this deformation is going to continue to occur over time - at the very least in that specific airfoil. And this suggests to me that a) the builder should be replacing the airfoil (not authorizing payment for repairing it) and the owner is not well served to consider filling & fairing as a suitable repair.

One thing I've noticed on LSA forums is the tendency to discuss these a/c from a fairly short-term perspective. IMO the notion of filling & fairing an airfoil deformation is an example of this tendency. When one visits the Part 23 model/manufacture-specific forums (e.g. Grumman, Cardinal, 172, A36 etc. oriented forums), this kind of failure would be viewed with much disdain and considered sloppy manufacturing, even tho' the a/c being discussed might be 1-2-3+ decades old. Something to think about...

ussyorktown · Post by **ussyorktown** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:48 am

have you noticed any trim changes during the period of your ownership?

No. Only noticed it about two weeks ago on initial inspections. The mechanic also noticed the silver dollar sized one in the trim.

Jack Tyler · Post by **Jack Tyler** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:02 am

"Only noticed it about two weeks ago on initial inspections."

I'm not sure what 'initial inspections' refers to, nor do I see a statement about how long you've owned (and therefore being preflighting) this specific a/c. However, if you've owned the a/c for even a few months, feel you've done thorough preflights each time you've flown, and the a/c received a thorough pre-buy inspection, then all of those are indicators that the aileron failure is very recent. In that case, it's reasonable to assume it may continue. Things you may want to consider when discussing warranty coverage and replacement vs. repair.

drseti · Post by **drseti** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:47 am

Are you sure the problem wasn't caused by your iPad?

(Just teasing. Please don't take me seriously.)

3Dreaming · Post by **3Dreaming** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:19 am

This condition is covered by a service notification taht you might want to read. http://flightdesign.com/files/Service%2 ... -01-en.pdf

ussyorktown · Post by **ussyorktown** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:10 pm

http://flightdesign.com/files/Service%2 ... -01-en.pdf
"Here's your problem lady..."

I bought the Bruce cover for $500 or so but not for the wings. As these bandits want $500 or so for wing covers I may have to put her into a hangar and just let "the wife" complain about "all this money you are spending on your silly hobby!"

ussyorktown · Post by **ussyorktown** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:23 pm

I just got off the phone with Flight Design. He sounds concerned, helpful and professional.
FD: "It is cosmetic at this point. You don't have to the ground the plane-nothing like that."
He asked me, "one question. What do you use when you wash the plane."
Dan, "nothing. I've never washed the plane."
I got the plane from Hillsdale Aviation in Michigan. Maybe he washed it."
FD: "I ask because when we've seen this before it was the alkaline in the cleaner."
DB: No. Never cleaned it. (no acid rain in Oregon as we get our weather from the Pacific systems moving east).
FD: OK, fill out a FD warranty form and we'll take it from there.

ussyorktown · Post by **ussyorktown** » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:50 pm

Troubling email from my light sport Mom (Mechanic). He says, "multiple areas of deterioration" may require ultra sound to find them all.

Lucky me. (this all happened AFTER i bought the IPad, by the way)

Sport Pilot Talk

Collapse in my CTSW alerion and trim

Collapse in my CTSW alerion and trim

Shrinkage

CT Year