1320 limit

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Atrosa
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1320 limit

Postby Atrosa » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:12 pm

I'm having an information exchange with a certain seller of a certain sporty LSA. This LSA has a empty weight of 830 so technically I have 490 useful. My butt is 205 so now I have 285. My potential Instructor is 170, which leaves me 115, so lets say 18 gallons @ 5.5 GPH... enough for flight instruction.

Now here is the crux of my question, the seller said they routinely load it up to 1500+. So is the 1320 a nod, nod, wink, wink limit that the only time it will be 1320 is when the DPE is there or do most abide by the 1320? I assume it is the latter.

Even a gentleman trying to get me in a Bristell was saying their plans can haul a lot more than the 1320 and as soon as the FAA increase the max the planes will be bumped.

So again, I'm a rule follower, but is this like a routinely broken rule?

TimTaylor
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Re: 1320 limit

Postby TimTaylor » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:40 pm

LSA weight limit is 1320. FAA regulations are not a wink, wink, nod, nod. 115 pounds for fuel is 19 gallons. In a Rotax powered aircraft, that is 3 hours plus VFR reserves. That should not be a problem. The people who tell you it is OK to ignore FAR's are the same people who tell you it is OK to lie, cheat, and steal in other aspects of your life.

That said, many LSA have the power to haul more weight and may be certified for higher weight when and if the FAA raises the LSA weight above 1320. It seems like many sales people representing companies that sell overweight LSA will tell you to ignore the FAR's.

There are other safety considerations such as ability to withstand a crash, stall speeds, etc.

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drseti
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Re: 1320 limit

Postby drseti » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:41 pm

Sadly, exceeding the LSA weight limit is just as common as exceeding the highway speed limit - and every bit as unsafe.

The LSA rules are anything but arbitrary - they were established to improve safety by minimizing injury in the unfortunate event of an accident. Thankfully, fatalities in a properly loaded LSA are rare. They become more common as the weight limit is exceeded. So, pilots who ignore the 1320 figure obviously have little regard for their own (or their passengers') safety. And, by extension, LSA vendors who encourage overloading their products have little regard for their customers' lives.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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FastEddieB
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Re: 1320 limit

Postby FastEddieB » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:31 pm

Atrosa wrote:Now here is the crux of my question, the seller said they routinely load it up to 1500+. So is the 1320 a nod, nod, wink, wink limit that the only time it will be 1320 is when the DPE is there or do most abide by the 1320?


1) Try nodding and winking to an FAA representative after an incident or accident while over gross. I value my license. But some don’t mind gambling with theirs.

2) And gambling with what they surmise is their personal guess as to how much over gross they can safely operate, based on what somebody else is getting away with or what they’ve “been told”. This is a gamble one would not want to lose.

3) Performance charts, including stall speeds and speeds for safe operations, will stop at 1,320 lb. Trying to interpolate above that limit puts one into test pilot mode.

People who have flown with me know I consider 1,320 lbs a hard limit. If others don’t, that’s on them.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
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TimTaylor
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Re: 1320 limit

Postby TimTaylor » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:02 pm

I normally fly a SkyCatcher which has a 490 pound useful load. When by myself, full fuel is no problem. When flying with my flying buddy, I depart with 3/4 tanks to keep us safely below 1320. We usually fly about an hour for lunch then return. Since I don't like getting below 1/2 tanks, I will add 6 gallons before heading home. Probably a little more conservative than necessary, but that's how I fly. That's worked well for me for 55 years of flying.

If the SkyCatcher had a fuel selector, I might feel better about getting down to 1/4 fuel (6 gallons), but since I can't control fuel flow per side, I don't trust running one tank dry.

Atrosa
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Re: 1320 limit

Postby Atrosa » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:59 pm

The crazy part is more then one sales person said this to me.

TimTaylor
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Re: 1320 limit

Postby TimTaylor » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:03 pm

Atrosa wrote:The crazy part is more then one sales person said this to me.


"sales person"

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Warmi
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Re: 1320 limit

Postby Warmi » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:17 pm

Atrosa wrote:The crazy part is more then one sales person said this to me.


Usually it is the type of “ Of course it is illegal to fly over gross but the plane will fly just fine” ...

Aa far as the plane is concerned , they are probably right - it will fly just fine over gross and you gonna be fine if you do accommodate for different flying characteristics.
As far as the legal side of things then you are on your own and they probably couldn’t care less if you get in any sort of trouble..
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

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drseti
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Re: 1320 limit

Postby drseti » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:35 pm

Warmi wrote: “ Of course it is illegal to fly over gross but the plane will fly just fine” ...


Until it doesn't. It doesnt take a rocket scientist (which I happen to be) to see the folly of this reasoning.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
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AvSport LLC, KLHV
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TimTaylor
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Re: 1320 limit

Postby TimTaylor » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:45 pm

As an example, how many fatal stall spin accidents turning base to final were due to overloaded aircraft? Maybe none, but it could easily be a factor. More likely might be hard landings due to overloaded aircraft. And, if you're a person who is going to ignore weight limits, you might also ignore cloud clearances and weather minimums, etc. To me, it's a mindset that a pilot develops early as part of being a good pilot.

Atrosa
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Re: 1320 limit

Postby Atrosa » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:09 am

TimTaylor wrote:As an example, how many fatal stall spin accidents turning base to final were due to overloaded aircraft? Maybe none, but it could easily be a factor. More likely might be hard landings due to overloaded aircraft. And, if you're a person who is going to ignore weight limits, you might also ignore cloud clearances and weather minimums, etc. To me, it's a mindset that a pilot develops early as part of being a good pilot.


I absolutely agree. I'm a firearms safety instructor and have been shooting since i was 8. The reason i have never had a gun accident is that i always follow the safety rules. I handle a gun every day amd i have a healthy dose of respect for it. I also am acutely aware that familiarity breeds contempt. Im treating these flying machines equally.

I was watching a youtube video of someone in an LSA exceeding 120 kt. It was posted on youtube....

I guess my question is: Is disregard for certian FAA rules pervasive or is it just a very few bad actors?

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FastEddieB
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Re: 1320 limit

Postby FastEddieB » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:55 am

Atrosa wrote:
I was watching a youtube video of someone in an LSA exceeding 120 kt. It was posted on youtube....


To be accurate as long as the plane was under Vne, that’s neither illegal, improper nor unsafe, in and of itself.

The 120 kt limit comes up here: “A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (V H) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level.“ That’s a design limitation for the aircraft, not an operating limitation.

Many pilots of sleek LSA’s will choose to descend at or near cruise power, and will routinely see more than 120 kts on the way down. In smooth air that’s just fine.
Fast Eddie B.
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FastEddieB
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Re: 1320 limit

Postby FastEddieB » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:05 am

Warmi wrote:Usually it is the type of “ Of course it is illegal to fly over gross but the plane will fly just fine” ...

Aa far as the plane is concerned , they are probably right - it will fly just fine over gross and you gonna be fine if you do accommodate for different flying characteristics.


Consider the implications of the bolded word above. Probably right always entails possibly wrong.

I think pilots should always take heed when the word “probably” sneaks into their thinking. Like you probably have enough fuel left to make it*. Or that fouled plug will probably clear itself. Or that probably nothing has changed since you did your last preflight. Or that ceiling probably won’t keep getting lower. It’s insidious, because for the most part things do work out for the best, reinforcing the pushing of limits.

In the immortal words of the Professor, “Until It Doesn’t”. Which could easily be substituted for the caption here:

Image


*Maybe we could call that one “The Bernath Principle”. And sadly in his case we got to see the end result of a certain mindset.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
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FastEddieB@mac.com

TimTaylor
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Re: 1320 limit

Postby TimTaylor » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:22 am

Atrosa wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:As an example, how many fatal stall spin accidents turning base to final were due to overloaded aircraft? Maybe none, but it could easily be a factor. More likely might be hard landings due to overloaded aircraft. And, if you're a person who is going to ignore weight limits, you might also ignore cloud clearances and weather minimums, etc. To me, it's a mindset that a pilot develops early as part of being a good pilot.



I guess my question is: Is disregard for certian FAA rules pervasive or is it just a very few bad actors?


I think it's the latter.

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FastEddieB
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Re: 1320 limit

Postby FastEddieB » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:33 am

TimTaylor wrote:
I think it's the latter.


I certainly hope it’s the latter.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
CFI, CFII, CFIME
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