Sportrcruiser accident in Addison Tx

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TimTaylor
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Re: Sportrcruiser accident in Addison Tx

Postby TimTaylor » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:51 pm

ShawnM wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:It just depends on what's ahead, what your altitude is, and what the runway environment is. Regardless, avoid a stall, spin. My LSA checkout CFI was killed giving a flight review in a Commander when they tried to make it back to an intersecting runway and hit power lines. They crashed into an embankment beside the runway and burst into flames.


Exactly, had they tried to land somewhere out in front of them they’d probably still be alive today. I’m sure all they were thinking about is getting back to the runway and never had time to look for power lines.

I was responding to this post.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

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Jim Hardin
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Re: Sportrcruiser accident in Addison Tx

Postby Jim Hardin » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:02 pm

ShawnM wrote:
...
Early in my training before I bought my own plane, the Remos I trained in had a chute and my instructor told me that the only time we are ever gonna pull that handle is if a wing departs from the plane. :mrgreen:
...


No offense Shawn, but your instructor was an idiot!

The few planes equipped with one that I have taught in, I always emphasis use it! Special care is taken to Arm it. likewise to Disarm it on return. It is also included in the passenger brief along with the caution to keep clear of it unless you intend to pull it.

It is funny when you try to find info on deployment. I swear it was a CTLS that listed minimum altitude along with both Minimum and Maximum speeds with deployment. Just looked and cannot find it :cry: I did look at their checklist:
1. Ignition off
2. Pull handle
3. Tighten seat belts
4. Assume fetal position (or words to that effect)
5. Fuel off
6. Mayday
7. Electric off

Looking at others, Sting lists Tighten belts and harness as 5.5Gs can be experienced during opening :shock: On the other hand they go on to set the radio and transponder to emergency and lastly, pull! They do mention 135K as max airspeed for deployment.

Remos lists shutoff electric and gas. Pull!

So there is some variance in the sequences but I think my choice would be to get that chute out as soon as possible. Of course there are other factors I would consider at that time.

The chutes are still relatively new to all of general aviation so the I can land it attitude remains too strong. I took some Cirrus (simulator) time and it is emphasized even in the sim. Armed at startup. On takeoff, upon reaching 700 AGL the callout of CAPS & Flaps is made, every takeoff. It means that a safe altitude has been reached for Cirrus Airframe Parachute System and flap retraction.

That is the way you teach recovery systems. If drilled into their heads early on, it will be used.

Speculation: How would this particular accident turned out if it had been used?

TimTaylor
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Re: Sportrcruiser accident in Addison Tx

Postby TimTaylor » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:38 pm

We seem to have these debates from time to time, and that's a good thing. It would probably be best if people, when giving their opinions, would omit the words "always" and "never" because they seldom apply. I think the main difference between a pilot and a good pilot is having good judgement and using it correctly.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

Warmi
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Re: Sportrcruiser accident in Addison Tx

Postby Warmi » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:41 pm

Sting POH seem to take the middle ground on the subject:

The Sting S4 comes standard with an aircraft parachute system manufactured by the Galaxy® High Technology (GRS) Corporation. It is imperative that the owner/pilot of this airplane read and understand the system operating manual provided by Galaxy®. In most emergency scenarios, the use of the system is not necessary. The parachute system will increase the chance of occupant survival.


As to the actual deployment:

If the system is used, certain steps should at least be attempted
prior to activation:
1. Airspeed........................SLOW THE AIRCRAFT, IF POSSIBLE
2. Ignition.................................................................................OFF
3. Harnesses....................................................................TIGHTEN
4. Parachute activation handle......PULL FIRMLY (25 POUNDS)
5. Radio............ SET TO 121.5; TRANSMIT MAYDAY, MAYDAY,
MAYDAY!” and AIRCRAFT ID with CURRENT POSITION
6. Transponder.........................................................SET TO 7700
7. Impact position.................................PULL LIMBS CLOSE TO
BODY and COVER FACE
Firmly pull the parachute activation handle out 18 inches with about 25 pounds of force. The system should complete inflation in 1.5 – 3.5 seconds.
Maximum speed for aircraft parachute deployment at gross weight: 122.5 Kts.
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

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ShawnM
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Re: Sportrcruiser accident in Addison Tx

Postby ShawnM » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:44 pm

TimTaylor wrote:My response to you was based on your response that my LSA checkout CFI would be alive today if only he had not turned back toward the airport. You have no knowledge of the actual situation that took the lives of two people.


Just enough to know they probably shouldn't have turned around.

TimTaylor
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Re: Sportrcruiser accident in Addison Tx

Postby TimTaylor » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:48 pm

ShawnM wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:My response to you was based on your response that my LSA checkout CFI would be alive today if only he had not turned back toward the airport. You have no knowledge of the actual situation that took the lives of two people.


Just enough to know they shouldn't have turned around.

You are a piece of shit. My friend was killed because he lost an engine in an impossible situation. You know nothing about it yet you continue to criticize them for making the only decision they believed might save them.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

TimTaylor
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Re: Sportrcruiser accident in Addison Tx

Postby TimTaylor » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:09 pm

Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

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ShawnM
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Re: Sportrcruiser accident in Addison Tx

Postby ShawnM » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:35 pm

TimTaylor wrote:
ShawnM wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:My response to you was based on your response that my LSA checkout CFI would be alive today if only he had not turned back toward the airport. You have no knowledge of the actual situation that took the lives of two people.


Just enough to know they shouldn't have turned around.

You are a piece of shit. My friend was killed because he lost an engine in an impossible situation. You know nothing about it yet you continue to criticize them for making the only decision they believed might save them.


If you feel the need for name calling that's fine, doesn't hurt my feelings at all. I'll say thank you and I'll just take the high road with you on this one.

What I'm saying proves my earlier post that many, many "impossible turn" attempts end in death and your CFI's accident is proof. This is why I say fight the urge to turn back to the runway UNLESS you have plenty of altitude. You have a higher chance of survival landing on something, anything, out in front of you.

I'm not making this stuff up, stall/spin accidents stemming from turning back have a higher fatality rate compared to other general aviation accidents. This is a fact, Google it. If you want to gamble with your life and take that chance and turn back be my guest but I'm sticking with my choice of landing somewhere out in front of me as my odds of survival are much better.

Have a great evening Tim.

TimTaylor
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Re: Sportrcruiser accident in Addison Tx

Postby TimTaylor » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:45 pm

It was not a stall/spin. They had no where else to land, unless they wanted to kill some other people too. They made the best choice given the circumstance, IMO. I would trust my friend's judgement over your's, a low-time Sport Pilot, any day. It was also a high performance, complex aircraft, not an LSA.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

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drseti
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Re: Sportrcruiser accident in Addison Tx

Postby drseti » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:48 pm

TimTaylor wrote:It would probably be best if people, when giving their opinions, would omit the words "always" and "never" because
...

Oh, I always omit those words, because they never apply. :D
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

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drseti
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Re: Sportrcruiser accident in Addison Tx

Postby drseti » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:52 pm

TimTaylor wrote:You are a piece of ...


Time out, Tim. You can make your point without resorting to that. You know better!
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

Wm.Ince
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Re: Sportrcruiser accident in Addison Tx

Postby Wm.Ince » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:39 am

drseti wrote:. . . You know better!

Now that's debatable! . . :D
Bill Ince
CTSW
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator

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MrMorden
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Re: Sportrcruiser accident in Addison Tx

Postby MrMorden » Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:36 pm

Jim Hardin wrote:No offense Shawn, but your instructor was an idiot!

The few planes equipped with one that I have taught in, I always emphasis use it! Special care is taken to Arm it. likewise to Disarm it on return. It is also included in the passenger brief along with the caution to keep clear of it unless you intend to pull it.


I wasn’t going to say anything, but since you did...I agree 100%. Statistically, off-airport landing attemps are far deadlier than parachute pulls. If there is any significant doubt of the outcome of an engine out situation, I’m going to pull.

BTW, my CT instructor was previously an F-104 instructor pilot for the German Air Force. He drilled it into my head that when there is a problem, the first thought should be “do I need the chute?” You can always reject that option, but if you don’t consider it you will never use it when you really need it.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

Warmi
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Re: Sportrcruiser accident in Addison Tx

Postby Warmi » Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:57 pm

So Andy you are back on your feet ( wings) ?
That must have been real tough not to fly for something close to 2 months in the middle of the damn summer ...
It would have been for me , that’s for sure.
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

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MrMorden
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Re: Sportrcruiser accident in Addison Tx

Postby MrMorden » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:20 pm

Warmi wrote:So Andy you are back on your feet ( wings) ?
That must have been real tough not to fly for something close to 2 months in the middle of the damn summer ...
It would have been for me , that’s for sure.


I am just now flying again, but I’m still in a bit of pain sometimes. Shoulders are a tough heal.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA


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