Update on LSA limits from Oshkosh

Talk about airplanes! At last count, there are 39 (and growing) FAA certificated S-LSA (special light sport aircraft). These are factory-built ready to fly airplanes. If you can't afford a factory-built LSA, consider buying an E-LSA kit (experimental LSA - up to 99% complete).

Moderator: drseti

Mark Gregor
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:36 pm
Location: minnesota

Re: Update on LSA limits from Oshkosh

Postby Mark Gregor » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:52 pm

Last issue of Aviation consumer had an article on LSA safety. They compared LSAs to Cessna 152s and 172s.
Their findings did not show LSAs to have lower death rates. A few were lower but some slightly higher. You may want to check it out. Looks like they were pretty thorough considering the Data available. Based on real life data I dont think we can say lighter aircraft are safer.

Mark

TimTaylor
Posts: 1067
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:17 pm

Re: Update on LSA limits from Oshkosh

Postby TimTaylor » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:06 pm

Maybe not if you consider all types of accidents. For instance, if you fly into a thunderstorm, your chances in an LSA might not be better than in a 747. I think the point is, if LSA weight limits are increased, and we all hope they will be, that might not contribute to improved safety for LSA.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 5902
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: Update on LSA limits from Oshkosh

Postby drseti » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:24 am

I haven't seen that article, Mark, so can't comment on it specifically. But, as an aviation safety researcher, speaking in generalities:

There are many ways to cherry-pick data to get any result you wish. If, for example, Aviation Consumer just compared C150/C152 accidents to some LSAs, they may well have gotten that result. I used a 10-year NTSB data dump, comparing all GA to all LSA accidents. YMMV.

That said, I'll quote our friend Bruce Landsberg (just approved by the Senate for a term on the NTSB, btw): "some Sacred Cows make great hamburger." The sacred cow that heavier is safer just might be one of those.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

User avatar
MrMorden
Posts: 1975
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Athens, GA

Re: Update on LSA limits from Oshkosh

Postby MrMorden » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:38 am

As far as safety goes, here is my take, an opinion worth exactly what you paid for it...

All of recreational aviation is about risk acceptance, and not risk avoidance. If we wanted to avoid risk, we'd sit on our couches wrapped in our Snuggies watching Netflix. We accept the risks that aviation brings, in order to enjoy the perceived benefits of the hobby. In that regard, it's not unlike riding motorcycles. But unlike motorcycle riders, pilots are in control of the vast majority of major risks to their safety. So then the question becomes: "what level of risk am I willing to accept?"

The old adage "it's a poor mechanic that blames his tools" loosely applies here. I think we focus way too much on the hardware, and how fast is safe,and how heavy is safe, etc. Clearly, there are very safe flights conducted daily in airplanes that do 250kt, stall at 90kt, and weigh 6000lb. So the issue is really not the tool, it's the mechanic. We should be focusing on education and proper decision making such that we don't put ourselves in situations where the airplane can bite us.

You will never be killed flying through thunderstorms if you never fly through thunderstorms. You will never have a base-final stall/spin if you properly manage your speed, bank angle, and wind corrections in the pattern. Make good decisions, and manage your own risk! If we do that, the accident rate goes way down and we don't have to concern ourselves so much with whether the airplane can do 120kt to 180kt, whether it weighs 1320lb or 1500lb, and whether it stalls at 45kt or 55kt. If we learn to both fly the airplane and manage our risk properly, those minor differences become much less of a determinant in accident statistics.

Of course the unforeseen can happen -- if the engine decides to shed two of four cylinders while you are sightseeing over the Rocky Mountains, you are without a doubt 90% screwed. Are you less screwed in an airplane that weighs next to nothing and stalls at very low speed, than a 3000lb rocket that stalls at 80kt? Probably. But you accept that risk when you buy the rocket. I'd rather get to decide what risks I will accept than have others do it for me through regulations.

Pilots who don't manage risk well will continue to die no matter what you put them in, a Cirrus or a Belite. Pilots who practice good risk management and use common sense will continue to live to ripe old age and enjoy aviation until they finally decide to hang up their spurs. No limits imposed by any agency will change that, until the FARs say humans aren't allowed to touch the controls and only the computers can fly.

Again, this is entirely my opinion and I take sole responsibility for its content. If you don't like it, post your own! :D
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

User avatar
FastEddieB
Posts: 2510
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Update on LSA limits from Oshkosh

Postby FastEddieB » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:30 am

Andy,

Just like to say that was a well thought out post, and I concur.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
CFI, CFII, CFIME
FastEddieB@mac.com

TimTaylor
Posts: 1067
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:17 pm

Re: Update on LSA limits from Oshkosh

Postby TimTaylor » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:34 pm

Agreed.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 5902
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: Update on LSA limits from Oshkosh

Postby drseti » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:06 pm

And, here's one more vote for Andy's perspective.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

Wm.Ince
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:27 pm
Location: Clearwater, FL

Re: Update on LSA limits from Oshkosh

Postby Wm.Ince » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:09 pm

Right on Andy!
Bill Ince
CTSW
Retired Heavy Equipment Operator

User avatar
Jim Hardin
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:33 pm

Re: Update on LSA limits from Oshkosh

Postby Jim Hardin » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:05 pm

Well said!

foresterpoole
Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:28 pm
Location: Alexandria, LA

Re: Update on LSA limits from Oshkosh

Postby foresterpoole » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:25 pm

Well said!
Ed

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 5902
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: Update on LSA limits from Oshkosh

Postby drseti » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:29 pm

MrMorden wrote:Again, this is entirely my opinion and I take sole responsibility for its content. If you don't like it, post your own! :D


Andy, the vote appears unanimous. You speak for us all!
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

cam737
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:10 pm

Re: Update on LSA limits from Oshkosh

Postby cam737 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:19 pm

Very, very, well said!
cam737
Sling 2 Build
cam737@mac.com

swa

Andrew G
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2016 3:29 pm

Re: Update on LSA limits from Oshkosh

Postby Andrew G » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:50 pm

Andy, that is the attitude I took venturing back into this exciting and expensive life we call Aviation... I literally grew up with A&P's who drilled safety/planning/ "there are old pilots... blah..." into me -- usually laced with X-rated prose. Invariably, I have a low risk profile and the lessons taught then are resonating hugely now - not so much when I was a 17 year old kid, and yet my goal is to fly to Oshkosh '19 and I am functionally a student pilot today. That OSH journey is a mere 11 months away and can perhaps be viewed as a lot of risk, but that's not how I view it. I know I have a lot to learn and I am not learning to "pass my PPL Review", rather, I am learning to keep very safe. Accidents do happen, humans make mistakes... however... with the incredible amount of data, accident metrics and resources (like this forum) out there Pilots really can improve their safety margins.

A friend took me up last week and he immediately dialed in Flight Following - the flight was short, the day was beautiful. At first, I thought "why bother?" and as I listened and understood what the service was all about I couldn't believe that we had eyes in the sky so to speak who will watch out for us in a busy Northeastern USA corridor. Several times the FF official professionally warned us about incoming traffic, we adjusted, the other guy adjusted and sure enough there was the silver streak passing 500 feet below us. And yet, many fellow pilots don't use the service. The countless videos on the net about density altitude dangers, CG and "you too can stall at any speed and in any config" should give every pilot some learning pause and brush up. When I was flying at the age of 17, 40 years ago, I was young and had a "that won't happen to me" attitude and I did study hard -- to pass the PPL exam.

I don't know about you folks, but I am not ever "lucky" or terribly smart. So I rely on good planning, knowledge and training to achieve things. I know a lot of pilots who feel that way too. And I very much want to be a safe pilot. I may not make it to Oshkosh '19, but I am certainly going to work hard at it. Thank you for the good post.

TimTaylor
Posts: 1067
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:17 pm

Re: Update on LSA limits from Oshkosh

Postby TimTaylor » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:02 pm

Take an experienced pilot with you to KOSH.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

RBearden56
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Update on LSA limits from Oshkosh

Postby RBearden56 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:47 pm

This is very good news for our sport. I have been flying around in my Allegro 2000 ELSA that was originally rated at 1232 lb MTOW so a little heavier airplane would suit me fine. There are so many good Cessna, Pipers, and Beech's around that would great for sport pilots and flight schools. I appreciated Andy's statement and couldn't agree more. I have had my share of bumpy windy days that challenged both me and my instructor and really they help me be a better, safer pilot. They taught us how to keep our heads, think issues through, and not take un-needed risks.

Randall Bearden
Alpharetta GA
Sport Pilot, RLSI


Return to “Light Sport Aircraft”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Google Adsense [Bot] and 4 guests