Rules for converting s-lsa to e-lsa ?

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howardnmn
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Rules for converting s-lsa to e-lsa ?

Postby howardnmn » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:16 pm

Has anyone gone thru the process of re-registering an s-lsa to an e-lsa? Does the mfr have to be out of business? Does FSDO give approval? Is resale value the only downside?
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FastEddieB
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Re: Rules for converting s-lsa to e-lsa ?

Postby FastEddieB » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:49 am

I have.

The answer to each of your three followup questions is "no".

Shoot me an email and maybe we can talk on the phone - that would save a lot of typing.

fasteddieb@mac.com
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Re: Rules for converting s-lsa to e-lsa ?

Postby FastEddieB » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:54 am

Here's a link to Mike Huffman's site:

http://www.sportaviationspecialties.com/DAR_Services.htm

He's a DAR near Atlanta, and did the E-LSA conversion paperwork on my Sky Arrow a few years ago.

That link may answer some of your questions.
Fast Eddie B.
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Jack Tyler
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Re: Rules for converting s-lsa to e-lsa ?

Postby Jack Tyler » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:28 am

Eddie, I felt a bit 'cheated' by your A to the OP's Q...and I didn't get anything of real value by looking thru the website you suggested. For those of us who would like to know, can you post a bit about how you saw the choice of converting to E-LSA status (pro's & con's, at least for your a/c and circumstances)? And have you seen any actual evidence that your a/c's value has been negatively impacted? (I ask because I've seen this actually go both ways with other S-to-E LSA conversions. After all, this is a very different thing than someone deciding to take an E-LSA certified kit and changing it to an E-AB). I'd also like to hear just what role the DAR actually needs to play in such a procedure, as I've heard others say they did the paperwork themselves. Since the S-LSA is already certified, is an inspection even required?

Thanks for sharing...
Jack
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FastEddieB
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Re: Rules for converting s-lsa to e-lsa ?

Postby FastEddieB » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:08 am

Sorry.

Here's a link to a thread which chronicles my journey to E-LSA.

http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1365&hilit=ELSA

Anyway...

1) Does not matter if the factory is in business. In fact some, like CubCrafters, give you the option of taking delivery as an E-LSA.

2) No "approval", per se, from the FSDO - the DAR is their "designated representative".

3)

Pro's: Ability to work on your own plane, substitute parts at owner's discretion, do own annuals with 16 hour course completion. A HUGE deal if you're a hobbyist/enthusiast and mechanically inclined.

Con's: Can never, ever go back to S-LSA. Cannot be used for flight instruction or rental. This may or may not affect resale, but probably will since it limits the number of potential buyers. Passengers my be put off by the "Experimental" stickers.

It had no direct affect on my insurance rates. I saved a little because they would only insure for $50k after the conversion, not the $70k I had previously used as the hull value. Currently paying $949/yr.
Fast Eddie B.
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Re: Rules for converting s-lsa to e-lsa ?

Postby FastEddieB » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:22 am

Looking back through that earlier thread, there's some misinformation.

ANYONE can work on their own E-LSA. That was the first thing covered in the class for the "Inspection" certificate. In fact one class member left after finding that out, confused into thinking that the class was required for that. The 16 hour course ONLY covers inspection, NOT maintenance.

Here's one of the missing graphics from that prior thread, from the EAA mag back in 2009:

Image
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Re: Rules for converting s-lsa to e-lsa ?

Postby drseti » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:05 pm

Thanks for posting that, Eddie. To further elaborate, I have a matrix at http://avsport.org/pwrpoint/matrix.pdf that shows who can perform four different types of tasks (preventive maintenance, minor repair, major repair/alteration, and condition inspection) on four different types of aircraft (E-LSA, S-LSA, E-AB, and certified). This is, in fact, the handout I provide at my LSA Maintenance seminars. (You should still attend my Sunday morning session at Sebring, if you're going to be there...)
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Re: Rules for converting s-lsa to e-lsa ?

Postby drseti » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:10 pm

howardnmn wrote:Does the mfr have to be out of business?


Absolutely not. Any S-LSA can be recertified as an E-LSA.

Does FSDO give approval?


Not approval, per se, but your local FSDO does have to issue a new Special Airworthiness Certificate, specifying E-LSA instead of S-LSA.

Is resale value the only downside?


There is some uncertainty as to whether the resale value would be affected at all -- the value of any plane is exactly what somebody is willing to pay for it -- no more, no less. But, do check with your insurance agent before converting. Some companies automatically charge more for anything with the word "experimental" associated with it.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Jack Tyler
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Re: Rules for converting s-lsa to e-lsa ?

Postby Jack Tyler » Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:24 pm

Thanks for further commenting, Eddie. Much appreciated.

I'll nominate Paul's S-LSA as a good example of why the value of a given S-LSA - at the time it's sold - may or may not be improved or harmed by conversion to E-LSA status. He's made several changes to the aircraft that his plane's mfgr. was willing to review and improve. Both make the plane more functional to almost any pilot/owner. If his mfgr. had left him with an orphan and he'd made those changes via converting to E-LSA status, I think it's reasonable to expect its value would have been improved by that conversion.

NB: One of the changes was initiated by the mfgr. so there's a little bit of mixing apples with oranges in my example. BUT Paul could have initiated the same approval process as an owner, if he'd chosen. Fortunately, life's good and his mfgr. remains in business.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If a mechanically inclined buyer finds an E-LSA model that meets his needs and has been converted, he's unlikely to ignore it...and might actually prefer it to comparable hulls of the same model. It all depends on the marketplace and - when it's time to sell a given a/c - who's selling & who's buying.
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roger lee
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Re: Rules for converting s-lsa to e-lsa ?

Postby roger lee » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:13 pm

One last little tid-bit. In fact an SLSA that went to ELSA can legally go back, but the big but is that the aircraft MFG would have to approve it again and since they don't know what you may or may not have done to it most probably would never do it. Not to mention they may not be enamored that you went ELSA to try and subvert some of their things to start with.
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Re: Rules for converting s-lsa to e-lsa ?

Postby drseti » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:51 pm

roger lee wrote:In fact an SLSA that went to ELSA can legally go back, but the big but is that the aircraft MFG would have to approve it


True, Roger, and if they approved it, they would be accepting liability if anything went wrong downstream. How many manufacturers are going to get that one approved by their legal departments? :cry:
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acensor
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Re: Rules for converting s-lsa to e-lsa ?

Postby acensor » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:47 pm

I'm looking at an odd bird (in terms if it’s registration.)

It's a Jabiru. an Experimental Amateur built by its type certificate. Although it was built at the factory and by the factory personnel.
Don't ask me how that happened. Haven’t found out that piece of history yet.

Bding factory built of course is a plus.

I have no problem with SLSA or with ELSA (which my present LSA is.)
I could think of that factory built E-AB Jab as either "having some of the Advantages of both SLSA and ELSA" of as "having some of the disAdvantages of both SLSA and ELSA."

One big advatage to me of my ELSA Is there having taken the 16 hour inspector course We can do our own annuals.
Not so for Experimental AB.

So that that is an interesting question I throw out here:

If that Jabiru had left the factory classified as SLSA it _could_ be converted to ELSA....which is my preference if I were to buy a SLSA Jab.
But can a LSA experimental AB be converted from its present Exoerimental-AB to ELSA?

Alex
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FastEddieB
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Re: Rules for converting s-lsa to e-lsa ?

Postby FastEddieB » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:29 pm

acensor wrote:I

So that that is an interesting question I throw out here:

If that Jabiru had left the factory classified as SLSA it _could_ be converted to ELSA....which is my preference if I were to buy a SLSA Jab.
But can a LSA experimental AB be converted from its present Exoerimental-AB to ELSA?


Pretty sure the answer is no.

For a definitive answer, I’d suggest Michael Huffman, here: http://www.sportaviationspecialties.com
Fast Eddie B.
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3Dreaming
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Re: Rules for converting s-lsa to e-lsa ?

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:36 pm

acensor wrote:I'm looking at an odd bird (in terms if it’s registration.)

It's a Jabiru. an Experimental Amateur built by its type certificate. Although it was built at the factory and by the factory personnel.
Don't ask me how that happened. Haven’t found out that piece of history yet.

Bding factory built of course is a plus.

I have no problem with SLSA or with ELSA (which my present LSA is.)
I could think of that factory built E-AB Jab as either "having some of the Advantages of both SLSA and ELSA" of as "having some of the disAdvantages of both SLSA and ELSA."

One big advatage to me of my ELSA Is there having taken the 16 hour inspector course We can do our own annuals.
Not so for Experimental AB.

So that that is an interesting question I throw out here:

If that Jabiru had left the factory classified as SLSA it _could_ be converted to ELSA....which is my preference if I were to buy a SLSA Jab.
But can a LSA experimental AB be converted from its present Exoerimental-AB to ELSA?

Alex


The answer is definitely NO. Also for the E-AB you will need a A&P to do the condition inspection.

acensor
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Re: Rules for converting s-lsa to e-lsa ?

Postby acensor » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:07 pm

"......
The answer is definitely NO. Also for the E-AB you will need a A&P to do the condition inspection...."

Yeah..... I was pretty sure about both of those.

Slight correction though re "for the E-AB you will need a A&P to do the condition inspection."
Since the aircraft in question is a Light Sport (LSA) it can also be condition inspected by a Light Sport mechanic (a light sport mechanic with the Repairman Maintenance Rating.) It's a different ....and easier to get....rating than A&P.)
And IMO usually a Light Sport Mechanic/Repairman would be better qualified to do an annual on an LSA as most A&P's are unfamiliar with SLSAs or the engines (Rotax and Jabiru) often found on them.
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