Sport Pilot Talk

Actually there are about 15 flying, but only have been 2 in the states so far. Most of them have went down under.

It's "all" metal the same way your Evektor is all metal. Non structural components are made of lighter materials to save weight.

My time in the C162 consisted of just one time around the patch, in very windy and gusty conditions, so my Pirep is very limited but here it is.

Very sensitive to pitch like a lot of LSA's are. Not the easiest acft to ingress/egress and there is a hook on the door opening that appears to be designed to catch your belt loop when exiting the airplane. The control "stick" is unusual [not a joy stick] but easy to get used to. I didn't find the seat very comfortable, but the rudder pedals do adjust for longer legged people. If Cessna's numbers are to be believed, and I think they are correct, this airplane will cruise faster than most LSA's [looks can be decieving, you would think the Piper Sport would be faster]. How Cessna managed that, I don't know. The storage compartment [wouldn't call it baggage] was small and the salesman was quite frank in warning not to place anything too heavy there because the metal floor of the compartment was so thin it would bend easily. The really good news? It was very windy/gusty with lots of swirling when I landed, and I made one of the worst landings of my life but the aircraft was very forgiving of my mistakes [too fast and some sideload]. Overall, I would not prefer it for personal transportation but I think in the LSA catagory it is going to be the best trainer out there and have the lowest amount of down time.

Most certainly IS a plane that uses classic Cessna riveted aluminum construction. I can't believe that Cessna showed a composite mockup at Sun-N-Fun without making it VERRRRRY clear that the plane will be metal! Do you eel differently about it now, Paul!

_________________
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Cartersville, Ga
bryandcobb@att.net

I must say that this gives me a much more positive impression of the FlyCatcher, Bryan. (Sorry, I meant SkyCrasher...)

_________________
The opinions expressed in this post are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the position of the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS
AvSport of Lock Haven
http://AvSport.org fly@AvSport.org

Do I sense a sense of humor there Paul? LOL I'm really not a Cessna worshiper. I am just a realist who believes Cessna is gonna steamroll all the competition with all the RESOURCES they have.

The availability of a 162 at almost every airport, in a few years, is going to be the ticket to its' success.

Even with all of its' shortcomings, it has still got a lot of praise on this thread, from guys who have actually flown it. I HAVE NOT!!!! YET!!!

_________________
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Cartersville, Ga
bryandcobb@att.net

What is sometimes considered the best product, for a variety of reasons, doesn't always prevail in the market place.

Let's just remember, we're talking about airplanes and engines here, not peoples' mothers.

We seem to be back on track and having a productive discussion.

Paul, altho' this is a Sport Pilot forum, it does not mean - as you well understand - that the rest of the world ceases to exist. Benchmarking one LSA product against (or at least 'alongside of') another is fine...but also a bit artificial. If I were running the flight school I got my PPL at - small time operation at a relatively small field, but also a very suitable alternative to the 'Cessna Pilot Center' approach - I'd struggle to accept the rationale for a more limited use, more expensive LSA training product over a Part 23, less expensive, broader use product (such as that Skipper). Nothing against LSA's as a class of a/c. It's just hard to imagine the numbers working as well, and we all have to remember that numbers talk 'even among' Sport Pilots.

Bryon, you mentioned "The availability of a 162 at almost every airport, in a few years, is going to be the ticket to its' success". I'm not sure how you got to that logic. In the Tampa Bay area with which I'm most familiar, there are 3 Cessna Pilot Centers (each of them *very* small operators - I don't know if any of them have ordered a 162) among the roughly 15 GA airports in/around the Bay area. In another area I'm somewhat familiar with (the greater Jacksonville area of N Florida), Craig CRG has one...but there are 5 other airports nearby. These are metropolitan areas of 1M and 2M population...so 'almost every airport' seems quite a stretch in my corner of the world.

To continue that thought for just a moment, the USA is - as we've all been forced to realize over the last few decades - NOT the center of the universe. How many Cessna LSA's are going to invade Europe, do we think? (My bet: barely any, given all the competition over there and the EU's normal behavior to build import walls that prevent free trade). How about down in South America? I see mostly European LSA's invading that continent. Certainly not here in Oz (Cessna What?), given the cultural comfort and familiarity with things European.

I wish Cessna well. I think it would be wonderful to have a world class LSA that comes from a well regarded aviation manufacturer that offers the full spectrum of a/c. It's just that wishing doesn't make it so...

Paul: Cessna - think metal. <g>

Jack

_________________
Jack
RAF Florida State Liaison
Please visit www.theraf.org

Jack, CHECK AGAIN! Albert Whitted Field in St. Pete, and Peter O'Knight, on Davis Island in Tampa (Where I got my Private License in 1986) BOTH ALREADY HAVE A 162 ON THE FLIGHTLINE, FOR RENT, EARNING REVENUE AND TRAINING SPORT PILOTS.

* In the pilot training universe, USA IS still the center of the universe. It will stay that way as long as it remains CHEAPER to come here, pay room and board, and obtain a pilot's license for less than it takes to stay in your home country and train. (True for most countries if not all)

_________________
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Cartersville, Ga
bryandcobb@att.net

That logic probably applies for most flight schools, Jack (certainly is true for Charlie and his Skipper), but I went in a completely different direction when I forged my business plan. I saw a need for LSA in training, because I live in an area with aging population, and many prospective students and renters have concerns about the medical certificate. And, nobody was filling that need. When I started, there were was only one rental Sport Pilot eligible aircraft within a 100 mile radius (that being Charlie's Cub). Even now, over a year later, there's only one other game anywhere in the region -- a Flight Design CT at Heritage Aviation, Selinsgrove. The overwhelming bulk of FBOs and flight schools have completely rejected the LSA concept. That means there was an unfilled need, which played heavily in my planning process.

I had instructed in 150s, 172s, Cherokees, Traumahawks, and even Skippers for decades, and was ready to try something different. My decision to go LSA instead of Part 23 was deliberate, and aimed at filling a niche in which there is little competition. (Seems to have worked, too -- I'm busier than I wanted to be.)

_________________
The opinions expressed in this post are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the position of the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS
AvSport of Lock Haven
http://AvSport.org fly@AvSport.org

Good discussion!

As a prospective LSA customer/instructor, the 162, although not perfect, is lookin' mighty fine. The potential to become the LSA 'standard' is its most appealing characteristic to me.

It certainly makes my Sun n Fun shortlist!

I'm glad you have the customer base available to you. In New Mexico the situation is a little different in that while instruction is available (e.g. Bonnie Mauldin), nobody offers an LSA for rent. One has to buy or lease from Brian Longwill. This is a result of low population density, I think. The absences of rentals was what pushed me over the edge, not the absence of instruction.

Bryan, no need for the CAPS; I think we're pointing in the same direction. I didn't know about the 2 162's you mention (thanks for that...) and that just makes the same point: Out of perhaps 15 GA airfields in the Tampa Bay & Jax areas (pop: 3 million) and (now I'm guestimating...) at least 15 flight schools, 2 are offering flight instruction in 162's. It's good to know those 2 are in place...but if that doubles over time, I don't see how that makes 162's the 'new standard' for flight instruction.

Looked at historically, the old business model was that Cessna and Piper competed for most of the entry-level instructional a/c sales and they each had a mammoth, geographically widely distributed sales force. The other, smaller mfgrs. had their sales centers & incented unaffiliated flight schools with entry level training a/c so they would have larger order books (Beech, to some extent Grumman, etc.) That business model simply doesn't exist today, and the new one is still developing - as Paul's last post illustrates nicely.

Paul, your comments remind me of some ongoing 'public thinking' that Richard VanGrusen (the 'Van' of Vans Aircraft, which builds RV kits) has been doing in their RVator quarterly newsletters over the last two years. These reflections of his were essentially motivated by his decision to design an LSA category a/c kit while concurrently being very troubled by the course of General Aviation today, as is everyone else in the industry, with pilot numbers continuing to drop and related trends moving in the wrong direction. The basic question - a 'challenge', really - 'are there things we could be doing to bring GA - in the form of these new LSAs - to more of the potentially interested public?' He describes the same demographics that you spoke to specifically for your area - among others, an aging population with disposable income and available time, but with no real understanding about how to pursue a vague, general interest in aviation. And meanwhile, the general aviation industry just does not operated on a 'go to them' model but rather works off the model of trying to allure interested customers to the flight centers.

One example to illustrate his challenge: There was a large annual RV (meaning: Recreational Vehicle) show being held in his part of Oregon and he wondered what the reaction might be if the same shoppers who have travel itch to scratch, the time & money to look at RVs came across a different kind of 'RV' at the show, a product that also provided travel opportunities. So he slipped the wings & fuse of their RV-12 demo plane into a trailer and exhibited it at the show. I think he did it only partly out of commercial curiosity and partly to 'walk the talk' and try something unusual simply because so little unconventional marketing is done by a/c mftrs & distributors.

It got me to thinking: near downtown Tampa, there is the huge (really, it's now HUGE!) retirement community Sun City. They are of course scattered around elsewhere in the Sun Belt, too. I flew over it recently after having been away from that area for a decade...and it's now it's own city (not just in size but in types of residences, shopping centers, etc.). I'll bet no one has ever trailered a small plane into that development (with an invitation from the Civic Assn. ahead of time, of course) and set it up near a Club House or in the shopping center parking lot, with some basic FAQ handouts, perhaps a chartlet of the West Florida area and its many small airfields, an outline of what it takes to be a daytime pilot, and so forth. Yet look at the demographics: *lots* of disposable income, not just free time but a community culture where exploring hobbies is emphasized, and physical access to several nearby airports. I wonder what would happen if there was a Paul (or a Ham) in that area, doing that kind of promotional work. How could it not benefit both the instructor and general aviation?

_________________
Jack
RAF Florida State Liaison
Please visit www.theraf.org

Jack,

Don't interpret my caps on as shouting at you. I was just adding a little emphasis.

I forcast 30 to 40 162's within a 50 mile radius of the Tampa area within 5 years, especially if the economy continues to improve, and if Avgas doesn't go to $8 or $10 per gallon.

In my opinion, the event that really took the wind out of the sails of sport aviation is when E-LSA's became unusable for flight instruction and rental, and at about the same time, the economy got the flu.

_________________
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Cartersville, Ga
bryandcobb@att.net

Might as well toss in my worthless observation. I am not at all impressed with the 162. It looks "unfinished" and cheaply done and at this time I'm very leary of ANYTHING that the Chinese are shipping to us.
I'm soloed in the Remos, the CTSW and the CTLS and am brushing up for my checkride so not a lot of experience to lean on but I would certainly look Aerotrek (Eurofox) and others.
I'm not saying I wouldn't fly it but I would drive by several 162's to fly alot of the others.
I hope the 162 turns out to be a good lsa but I can't help but feel Cessna is merely trying to get by on reputation.

Sorry, I weighed the Skipper. Looks like 490 lbs useful load. Not 550 like I posted in the beginning.

Guess I'll have to throw out the KNS-80 RNAV, carpet, KX170B and audio panel. Heavy stuff. Looking at LED strobes to eliminate the power pack.