10 mile final....

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3Dreaming
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby 3Dreaming » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:00 am

FastEddieB wrote:
joey4420 wrote:Keeping with the topic though, I flew home from KEYE (Eagle Creek outside of Indianapolis IN) to KHAO (Butler Co Regional OH) it was an 86 mile straight in approach.


That certainly is legal, and you’ll come to find your own way on this.

But my question would be, what do you think you may have gained by not following your normal practice in the above case - that is, overflying the field first, and then entering the pattern the recommended manner?

The only justifications I can think of is to save maybe a tenth on the Hobbs, thereby saving a tiny modicum of fuel, or avoiding a certain amount of maneuvering at the end of a flight.

I also see that that KHAO lies beneath Class B. Was that a factor?

Is it one of these, or something else I’m missing?


Eddie, I do quite a bit of instructing at a airport in class G airspace, with left hand patterns for all runways. I always teach my students from day one to enter the pattern on a 45° to the downwind.

I have noticed that when we make our first trip to a towered airport that even though they make radio calls at out airport communication is lacking, and anything other than a standard left pattern is troublesome.

I think under some circumstances that flying a straight in approach can add a level of aeronautical experience that is otherwise lacking.

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FastEddieB
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby FastEddieB » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:52 pm

joey4420 wrote:

I have never done a straight in approach and there was no traffic, so figured why not learn how to do one in case I ever had that emergency I knew what it would look and felt like.


Got it.

Often when I see pilots do straight-ins, they seem to fly very shallow and low approaches from a long way out. This guarantees that an engine failure will result in an off-airport landing.

One thing I like to do and teach is to imagine the pattern as a string. Now cut that string at about midfield on the downwind and mentally stretch it straight out on final. Then maintain altitude until what would be midfield, and only then power back, get flaps down and start down. Then aim for the spot where you would normally be turning final, usually at about 500’. The whole idea is to make a straight-in as familiar as possible while remembering that altitude is your friend.
Fast Eddie B.
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Warmi
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby Warmi » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:32 pm

joey4420 wrote:
FastEddieB wrote:
joey4420 wrote:Keeping with the topic though, I flew home from KEYE (Eagle Creek outside of Indianapolis IN) to KHAO (Butler Co Regional OH) it was an 86 mile straight in approach.


That certainly is legal, and you’ll come to find your own way on this.

But my question would be, what do you think you may have gained by not following your normal practice in the above case - that is, overflying the field first, and then entering the pattern the recommended manner?

The only justifications I can think of is to save maybe a tenth on the Hobbs, thereby saving a tiny modicum of fuel, or avoiding a certain amount of maneuvering at the end of a flight.

I also see that that KHAO lies beneath Class B. Was that a factor?

Is it one of these, or something else I’m missing?



I have never done a straight in approach and there was no traffic, so figured why not learn how to do one in case I ever had that emergency I knew what it would look and felt like.

The Bravo Shelf had nothing to do with it. I fly under the shelf all the time, I have yet to talk to the tower or any tower actually; since I don't have that sign off in my logbook yet. That is a goal for this summer though.

I don't let the Hobbs or in my case the Tach time bother me, I fly for fun and freedom. I even fly most weekends 2 hours one way just to try some new lunch place, taking the $100 hamburger to the max.


Same here. When owning a plane , you get to endure a lot of pains and financial suffering but one benefit is that I don’t worry about the Tach time or any other time, fly when I want and where I want.

Btw ...one benefit of having your initial training done at a relatively busy towered aiport, is that you get to practice all sorts of landings, short , 5 mile straight ins , left and right pattern ... pretty much anything you can dream of :-)
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

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joey4420
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby joey4420 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:03 pm

drseti wrote:I know! I know!
Joey would have flown the pattern, but he got distracted looking for the rudder pedals.

:D


Those rudder pedals are so hard to locate in my Ercoupe... I keep looking for them and yet all I find is a brake pedal.

Warmi wrote:
Btw ...one benefit of having your initial training done at a relatively busy towered aiport, is that you get to practice all sorts of landings, short , 5 mile straight ins , left and right pattern ... pretty much anything you can dream of :-)


I have only flown into one towered airport in training and it was also the first time I did a Base to final on the Left runway while someone else was doing a straight in on the Right runway.
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Warmi
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby Warmi » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:06 pm

joey4420 wrote:
drseti wrote:I know! I know!
Joey would have flown the pattern, but he got distracted looking for the rudder pedals.

:D


Those rudder pedals are so hard to locate in my Ercoupe... I keep looking for them and yet all I find is a brake pedal.

Warmi wrote:
Btw ...one benefit of having your initial training done at a relatively busy towered aiport, is that you get to practice all sorts of landings, short , 5 mile straight ins , left and right pattern ... pretty much anything you can dream of :-)


I have only flown into one towered airport in training and it was also the first time I did a Base to final on the Left runway while someone else was doing a straight in on the Right runway.



Joey, how many hours you got on your Ercoupe since you got her last year ?
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

3Dreaming
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby 3Dreaming » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:54 pm

Warmi wrote:
Same here. When owning a plane , you get to endure a lot of pains and financial suffering but one benefit is that I don’t worry about the Tach time or any other time, fly when I want and where I want.

Btw ...one benefit of having your initial training done at a relatively busy towered aiport, is that you get to practice all sorts of landings, short , 5 mile straight ins , left and right pattern ... pretty much anything you can dream of :-)


The downside I see is the students that learn at a towered airports seem to not follow standard traffic pattern procedures at airports in class G airspace.

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joey4420
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby joey4420 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:52 am

Warmi wrote:

Joey, how many hours you got on your Ercoupe since you got her last year ?



68 Hours in my Ercoupe since August 10th of 2017 and 89 Landings.
Joey
Cincinnati OH
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drseti
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby drseti » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:58 am

Looks like you'll get your 100 hours a year, Joey. That's typically the break-even point of the rent-vs-buy equation (not factoring in the intangible benefits of aircraft ownership).
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foresterpoole
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby foresterpoole » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:22 am

I learned at a non-towered airport. So traffic pattern was a staple, however, I have gotten a few "long final" instructions from towered airports. While not a big deal to sport pilots, I believe it's good practice just because you never know when you might need the skill.

I will to tell on myself, I flew a straight in approach at an uncontrolled airfield last time I flew. Reported 10 miles out from the airport, then reported 5 miles. At 3 miles a called a "3 mile final runway 36.". I could clearly see no traffic in the pattern, nothing on the radio, and I had the weather already. I'm not saying it was right, in fact it was probably not something I'd normally do and won't do again, but at the time it seemed like a prudent decision.
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby TimTaylor » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:36 pm

It's perfectly fine if the conditions are right for it.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

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dstclair
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby dstclair » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:11 pm

TimTaylor wrote:It's perfectly fine if the conditions are right for it.

I would say it is perfectly within the regs but can't go along with 'fine'. I believe safety is enhanced by doing as much in a standard way as possible and the only pattern entry recommended by the FAA is the 45 degree entry off the downwind. As an example I went up for a quick flight today, taking off from T31 and doing a touch-n-go at KSWI, then back home. The wind was from the north, KSWI has a 16/34 runway and my route had a heading of 320 for pretty much the entire (short) trip. Very easy to just do a straight-in approach with calls 10 miles, 8 miles, etc. Also, very easy to go just a bit west of the airport and enter the downwind at the 45 degree. I estimate doing so took me around 90 seconds longer than a straight-in approach. YMMV.

AC90-66B "Non-Towered Airport Flight Operations" (https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... 90-66B.pdf) was just issued a couple weeks ago and it reiterates the "preferred" entry to the pattern (Section 11.3). It also is very clear that the "The FAA does not regulate traffic pattern entry, only traffic pattern flow." so any entry is within the regs. But I'm of the camp that if there is a FAA preferred or recommended method, then I need a really good reason not to follow it.

Completely off topic but another interesting item is section 10.7: "Disagreements. Do not correct other pilots on frequency (unless it is safety critical)....".
dave

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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby TimTaylor » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:28 pm

We'll just have to disagree. I say it's fine conditions permitting. I did not try to define what those conditions are. For instance, if I'm 10 miles east and winds are favoring runway 27 and there is no traffic in the pattern, I say it's fine. That would be an extreme example of "fine."
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby FastEddieB » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:21 am

I’ll go along with “fine”...

...99.9% of the time.

But every once in a great while a low wing and a high wing doing the same thing at the same time will tangle on final. Or with another plane flying a proper pattern and missing the plane coming in in an unexpected manner.

The chances of it happening on any given straight-in are practically nil. But given the Law of Large Numbers, it’s inevitable it will happen from time to time. And we’ll read the accident report and surmise that if both planes had simply followed the recommended procedures, the accident would likely not have occurred.

So I choose to avoid straight-ins for that reason. But That’s Just Me! (tm)
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914Driver
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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby 914Driver » Fri May 04, 2018 6:44 am

Curious, two planes landing, one calls a 10 mile final, the other does a pattern. Does one have rights over the other or is it first come first served?

I fly a glider. I'm in the pattern when a guy calls 10 mile final. I advise him I am in the pattern, however if he extends a bit I will cross his path and land in the grass to the right of the runway, leaving the runway for him. He mumbles some profanity about gliders and peels off to the south.

Sorry kids, gravity says I'm landing, my options are limited.

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Re: 10 mile final....

Postby drseti » Fri May 04, 2018 7:36 am

Gliders have right-of-way over power planes. All.The.Time.
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