ADS-B Reflections - (a confession and a suggestion)

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dstclair
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Re: ADS-B Reflections - (a confession and a suggestion)

Postby dstclair » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:01 pm

It all comes down to personal preference. If all you want is to be compliant then it makes perfect sense to wait until the deadline is much closer then purchase a minimalist ADS-B Out solution. If you want to get free weather and traffic before 2020, then you have various options which is where the discussions seem to drift. One owner might be OK with buying a potential boat anchor come 2020 because they value the new information it gives, while others may want a system that works now and is 2020 compliant but much more expensive.
dave

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FastEddieB
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Re: ADS-B Reflections - (a confession and a suggestion)

Postby FastEddieB » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:47 pm

MrMorden wrote:But on the other side of the coin, arguing that you successfully did something for many years is not really a great argument that it's adequate.


True.

I think I stipulated it had the potential to enhance safety.

But it is still a fact that for the decades I flew without traffic, nearly everyone else did as well. And midairs still were way, way down on the list of things that killed pilots.

I think my chances of finishing out my career sans traffic and without a midair are pretty good.

But to each his, or her, own.
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Re: ADS-B Reflections - (a confession and a suggestion)

Postby Wm.Ince » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:01 pm

Jim Stewart wrote:. . ."Now if they had an ADS-B solution that would have shown me that flock of turkey vultures I passed Sunday, I'd be more interested." . . .
Dynon is probably working on it. . . . :D

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Re: ADS-B Reflections - (a confession and a suggestion)

Postby CTLSi » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:43 pm

......
Last edited by CTLSi on Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:51 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: ADS-B Reflections - (a confession and a suggestion)

Postby drseti » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:44 pm

Jim Stewart wrote:Now if they had an ADS-B solution that would have shown me that flock of turkey vultures I passed Sunday, I'd be more interested.


Jim, I unveiled just such a system at Oshkosh 1987, patented it, and won the EAA Safety Achievement Award with it. Dr. Bob Machol, then FAA Chief Scientist, pushed for TCAS instead because a stand-alone, self-contained active solution takes the ATC system out of the loop, and puts all the power (and information) in the cockpit, thus threatening the FAA's infrastructure and empire. Google "Binaural Doppler Collision Alert System" (aka BiDCAS) if you want to learn more, or see back issues of Sport Aviation, circa 1986 to 1988.
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Re: ADS-B Reflections - (a confession and a suggestion)

Postby MrMorden » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:12 pm

drseti wrote:
Jim Stewart wrote:Now if they had an ADS-B solution that would have shown me that flock of turkey vultures I passed Sunday, I'd be more interested.


Jim, I unveiled just such a system at Oshkosh 1987, patented it, and won the EAA Safety Achievement Award with it. Dr. Bob Machol, then FAA Chief Scientist, pushed for TCAS instead because a stand-alone, self-contained active solution takes the ATC system out of the loop, and puts all the power (and information) in the cockpit, thus threatening the FAA's infrastructure and empire. Google "Binaural Doppler Collision Alert System" (aka BiDCAS) if you want to learn more, or see back issues of Sport Aviation, circa 1986 to 1988.


Interesting patent. I'm guessing this was only for the big stuff, not most GA airplanes? I can't see joe hobbyist affording a system that requires twin RADAR transceivers...
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Re: ADS-B Reflections - (a confession and a suggestion)

Postby drseti » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:17 pm

No, Andy, it was designed specifically for GA, using very low-power CW microwave sources (range 5 miles or so). Cost was about $2000 in 1987 dollars.
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Re: ADS-B Reflections - (a confession and a suggestion)

Postby Jim Stewart » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:58 pm

Very interesting, Paul.

I was in West Marine on Saturday, waiting for my wife to buy some clothes and I noticed a very interesting "WiFi micropower radar". It used 200 milliwatts of power in one of the WiFi bands. I thought that an aviation version would be very cool.
PP-ASEL, Flight Design CTSW owner.

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Re: ADS-B Reflections - (a confession and a suggestion)

Postby drseti » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:26 pm

Jim, the prototype I flight teated and demonstrated at Oshkosh used 500 mW per channel, in the 5 GHz band (which was at the time shared by aviation applications). Advances in microelectronics in the decades since would doubtless make today's price far lower than the 1987 version.

BiDCAS was evaluated for production by Eventide Electronics in New Jersey (producers of the Argus, GA's first moving map display). Their patent attorney advised them against acquiring the rights when it became clear that FAA was going to mandate a Mode S solution. So much for my claim to fame and fortune... :cry:
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: ADS-B Reflections - (a confession and a suggestion)

Postby Merlinspop » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:34 pm

drseti wrote:Jim, the prototype I flight teated and demonstrated at Oshkosh used 500 mW per channel, in the 5 GHz band (which was at the time shared by aviation applications). Advances in microelectronics in the decades since would doubtless make today's price far lower than the 1987 version.

BiDCAS was evaluated for production by Eventide Electronics in New Jersey (producers of the Argus, GA's first moving map display). Their patent attorney advised them against acquiring the rights when it became clear that FAA was going to mandate a Mode S solution. So much for my claim to fame and fortune... :cry:

Shoulda had a Plan ads-B!

(sorry....couldn't stop it)
- Bruce

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Re: ADS-B Reflections - (a confession and a suggestion)

Postby Jack Tyler » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:53 am

I think the NTSB stats will demonstrate that mid-air accidents and fatalities close-in at the airport/runway environment are significantly more common than they are out in the 'big sky, small plane' environment. That doesn't argue against the ability to have traffic avoidance ability in some fashion but I do think it places it in the 'nice to have' category, given that the only technology currently in use at controlled fields is still the Mk. 1 eyeball, as employed by pilots and controllers alike.
Jack
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Re: ADS-B Reflections - (a confession and a suggestion)

Postby drseti » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:59 am

Correct, Jack. Enroute midairs are exceedingly rare. The vast majority occur in the airport environment, with more than half taking place while one plane is making a straight-in approach, while the other is on the turn from base to final.

Source: my own book "Near Midair Collisions as an Indicator of General Aviation Collision Risk," (c) 1990, University Microfilms. (Probably long out of print.)
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Re: ADS-B Reflections - (a confession and a suggestion)

Postby FastEddieB » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:12 am

I think I posted this before, but...

...my closest encounter was at Opa Locka airport, a towered field.

I was in the back of my Citabria, with a student in the front. Departed 9L and had gotten permission for an early turn to a modified left downwind departure towards the practice area.

Suddenly heard and felt a WHUMP!!! as a helicopter passed what felt like inches above us, crossing from the right rear to the left front- so that with our high wing it would have been nearly impossible to see and avoid. It was really, really close.

Tragically there followed a two helicopter collision some time afterwards, so it was not a unique case:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1928&dat=19790118&id=en8pAAAAIBAJ&sjid=dmUFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2859,3107976

And, in searching for that one, came upon another:

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1987-09-01/news/8703110107_1_controllers-helicopter-aircraft

Both under tower control.

I am not saying ADS-B might not have prevented one or both of these, just agreeing about the increased hazard near airports, even towered ones.
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Re: ADS-B Reflections - (a confession and a suggestion)

Postby designrs » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:20 pm

MrMorden wrote:I don't feel naked without a traffic system, but I sure can see the advantages.


This (above).

I've flown TIS ADS-B IN only... and it's helpful, but not complete.
Still, a lot of nearby situational awareness pops up and it is comforting.

Really looking forward to having ADS-B IN & OUT!
It just a matter of how much $$$?
Optional or included?
and When?

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Re: Being ADS-B compliant with the help of my Stratus II

Postby Jack Tyler » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:24 am

I just learned how my Stratus II will offer a short-cut to being ADS-B compliant. Sort of...

NB: FYI Sporty's recently held a webinar on ADS-B (which BTW I found excellent) and which you can find here:
http://ipadpilotnews.com/2014/10/new-ad ... dium=email

My plane (a Grumman Tiger) fits into the same ADS-B related category as many other a/c, LSA and Part 23. I've equipped it with a box to benefit from ADS-B "IN" service, but I do not have ADS-B 'OUT' (neither 1090 and/nor 978), I do not have an installed/certified WAAS GPS, and so I am certainly not 2020 compliant. From what I can tell, there are a lot of us who enjoy ADS-B 'IN' info and want not only the least expensive mandate-qualified answer for 2020 compliance but we also want to minimize the install costs. And these install costs are in part driven by how complex the 2020 compliant gear we choose to install. OK, so with that as a backdrop...

In the above webinar, John Zimmerman spent some time discussing several currently on-the-shelf product choices for ADS-B 'OUT'. He ended with a slide (about the 40 min mark) mentioning that Appareo (which builds the Stratus II) announced at 2014 AirVenture they were building a simple (1090 mHz) box intended for ADS-B 'OUT' certification with a WAAS GPS incorporated in the box. Both panel space and installation effort would be as small & simple as possible, and it will offer a pigtail so the Stratus II unit can be connected to it. (Did anyone else hear of this announcement?) By choosing the 1090 freq, they make it useable by those folks visiting (or home based in) Canada and Central America as well as those few of us who want to get above 18,000' MSL. The Appareo website only hints at this, so I couldn't find the announcement itself. But for those who's plane is in the same category as mine, this might be another good example of the marketplace figuring out how to uniquely appeal to those of us who are still wrestling with NexGen's mandate. And since the info came from Sporty's, which has a business relationship with Appareo, I have to assume it's good scoop.

(My apologies to Eddie, who really doesn't want to be bothered with all this ADS-B mumbo-jumbo. Yet...)
Jack
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