Anatomy of a Checkride

Paul Hamilton is one of the first persons to become a DPE (Designated Pilot Examiner) for sport pilots. As a full-time author and sport pilot expert, he writes books and produces DVD's for Aviation Supplies and Academics (ASA). Now Paul has graciously agreed to answer your questions here. Thanks Paul! For more information about Paul, please visit www.Paul-Hamilton.com and www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com.

Moderators: drseti, Paul Hamilton

comperini
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Location: California

Re: Sort Of

Postby comperini » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:41 am

ArionAv8or wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong but The regs may state you can fly with 1 MI Vis and cloud clearance but I did not think that applies to Sport Pilots. I believe we must maintain 3 MI Vis and the standard 500' below, 1000' above and 2000' lat regardless of airspace.


Sport Pilots must have at least 3 miles, but they share the same cloud clearance requirements as everyone else (clear of clouds in class G, 1000/500/2000 everywhere else they can fly)

bryancobb
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:35 pm
Location: Cartersville Georgia

I shouldn't

Postby bryancobb » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:43 am

I shouldn't have to but I have to look that up.
I think you are right.
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Cartersville, Ga
bryandcobb@att.net

bryancobb
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:35 pm
Location: Cartersville Georgia

Partially right

Postby bryancobb » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:51 am

Sport Pilots must always have 3 MI VIS to fly, but I was right that your wingtip can be right next to a cloud.
Bryan Cobb

Sport Pilot CFI

Commercial/Instrument Airplane

Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter

Cartersville, Ga

bryandcobb@att.net

ArionAv8or
Posts: 271
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:42 am

Re: Sort Of

Postby ArionAv8or » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:03 am

comperini wrote:
ArionAv8or wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong but The regs may state you can fly with 1 MI Vis and cloud clearance but I did not think that applies to Sport Pilots. I believe we must maintain 3 MI Vis and the standard 500' below, 1000' above and 2000' lat regardless of airspace.


Sport Pilots must have at least 3 miles, but they share the same cloud clearance requirements as everyone else (clear of clouds in class G, 1000/500/2000 everywhere else they can fly)


Clear of clouds in Class G 1200' above the surface or less, 1200' above and greater sticks with the 500/1000/2000.

3Dreaming
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Location: noble, IL USA

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:03 am

Sport pilot in class"G" is 3 mile clear of clouds. The 3 mile comes from you pilot limitations.

ArionAv8or
Posts: 271
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:42 am

Postby ArionAv8or » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:22 am

3Dreaming wrote:Sport pilot in class"G" is 3 mile clear of clouds. The 3 mile comes from you pilot limitations.


And 1200' above the surface or LESS. 1200' above and GREATER have to maintain 500/1000/2000.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/te ... .10.2.5.34

3Dreaming
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Location: noble, IL USA

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:22 am

I'm always thinking about where I teach. around here we don't have any class "G" above 1200 AGL.

Jim Stewart
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Postby Jim Stewart » Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:56 pm

This has all gotten kind of fuzzy. By my reading of

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... ight=sport pilot privileges

Sport pilots must always have at least 3 miles visibility. No "free of clouds" in G below 1200' like private pilots.

ArionAv8or
Posts: 271
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:42 am

Postby ArionAv8or » Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:21 pm

Jim Stewart wrote:This has all gotten kind of fuzzy. By my reading of

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... ight=sport pilot privileges

Sport pilots must always have at least 3 miles visibility. No "free of clouds" in G below 1200' like private pilots.


I didn't see anything about cloud clearance in your link. I had to go to the cloud clearance portion of the FARs, 91.155 to determine the clearance differences. However, it does not specify there to be a difference between PPL and SP. I know that there is a difference so when it says 1 MI I know it is actually 3 MI for the SP. If someone knows the section that pertains directly to SP and spells it out in the FARs please list the link or FAR number.

comperini
Posts: 247
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Location: California

Postby comperini » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:09 pm

ArionAv8or wrote:I didn't see anything about cloud clearance in your link. I had to go to the cloud clearance portion of the FARs, 91.155 to determine the clearance differences. However, it does not specify there to be a difference between PPL and SP. I know that there is a difference so when it says 1 MI I know it is actually 3 MI for the SP. If someone knows the section that pertains directly to SP and spells it out in the FARs please list the link or FAR number.


Basically, 14 CFR 61.315 trumps any other regulation (including 91.155). So, even though 91.155 says "one mile", 61.315 (sport pilot privileges) says "3 miles".

There is nothing in 315 that changes the "clear of clouds" requirements, so 91.155 cloud clearance requirements apply to Sport Pilots, too.

This is no different than Part 91 telling you how you can fly at night, if your plane is appropriately equipped, but 61.315 says "no night flying" for Sport Pilots.

Part 91 privileges apply, unless they are trumped by 61.315

3Dreaming
Posts: 2332
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:13 pm
Location: noble, IL USA

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:10 pm

Jim, we have to look at all the regulations to get the answer. 91.155 calls out visibilty and cloud clearances. It says 1 mile and clear of clouds, however a SP must have 3 mile visibilty under 61.315. 61.315 does not change the cloud clearances. Tom

EppyGA
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:59 pm

Re: Sort Of

Postby EppyGA » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:14 pm

bryancobb wrote:(6) If a VFR pilot asks to "Participate" (ask ATC for service such as Flight Following) this plane is treated as an IFR aircraft.


Having trouble agreeing with this one. If I'm on FF and I have a mid-air the controller is not going to have any complicity. You're still VFR and they try to help you spot traffic.
Randy Epstein

Jim Stewart
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Postby Jim Stewart » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:52 pm

3Dreaming wrote:Jim, we have to look at all the regulations to get the answer. 91.155 calls out visibilty and cloud clearances. It says 1 mile and clear of clouds, however a SP must have 3 mile visibilty under 61.315. 61.315 does not change the cloud clearances. Tom


Are you saying that your interpretation is that Sport Pilots can fly with 1 mile visiblility and free of clouds when in class G below 1200' feet?

bryancobb
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:35 pm
Location: Cartersville Georgia

Treated

Postby bryancobb » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:02 pm

When I said "treated as an IFR plane," I mean that as it states in the AIM, "separation will be provided between all IFR and participating VFR aircraft.

In VFR weather EVERY PILOT must become primary in the see-and-avoid collision avoidance role. EVEN IF IFR RATED AND ON AN INSTRUMENT FLIGHT PLAN.

I had a friend (DPE) get killed while giving an instrument Checkride, in a helicopter and ON AN IFR FLIGHT PLAN, at Fulton County (Charlie Brown) in Atlanta (Towered Class D).
It was VFR weather and it was not the controller's job to keep airplanes from hitting each other. Their job during VFR is to sequence aircraft in and out in an orderly fashion. My friend, Rich Hull, had the applicant under the hood on an ILS. Mr. Hull called for the missed approach without fulfilling his see-and-avoid role as the eyes outside, and the applicant did just what was published, and hit an airplane turning final on another runway.

Four people died when both aircraft fell straight down.

NOT EVEN CHUCK YEAGER IN THE SPACE SHUTTLE CAN DELEGATE THAT SEE-AND-AVOID ROLE TO A CONTROLLER IN VFR WEATHER!
Bryan Cobb

Sport Pilot CFI

Commercial/Instrument Airplane

Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter

Cartersville, Ga

bryandcobb@att.net

bryancobb
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:35 pm
Location: Cartersville Georgia

No

Postby bryancobb » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:06 pm

Jim Stewart wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:Jim, we have to look at all the regulations to get the answer. 91.155 calls out visibilty and cloud clearances. It says 1 mile and clear of clouds, however a SP must have 3 mile visibilty under 61.315. 61.315 does not change the cloud clearances. Tom


Are you saying that your interpretation is that Sport Pilots can fly with 1 mile visiblility and free of clouds when in class G below 1200' feet?


No... I think I can speak for him. He's saying that Sport Pilots are ALWAYS subject to a 3MI VIS requirement but after that, 91.155 dictates that "clear of clouds" describes how close a Sport Pilot can legally get to "A CLOUD" as long as 3MI VIS is met. (IN CLASS G)
Bryan Cobb

Sport Pilot CFI

Commercial/Instrument Airplane

Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter

Cartersville, Ga

bryandcobb@att.net


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