New Florida Flyer & Questions...

[Adriana]

Hello! I had the good fortune of coming across this forum and have already found a number of helpful topics.

I'm located in Tampa Bay and very interested in trying out flying. I've scheduled a discovery flight this weekend with a nearby school and am very excited about going up for the first time.

A few things I was hoping to ask and get feedback on from some of you please...

In asking local schools about sport pilot instruction and/or certification, I'm getting some definite negative feedback. The school reps are quick to say, among other things: a) the Cessna 162 Skycatcher is not fun too fly and quite cramped (this is the only locally available LSA I know of for rental)....b) the certification itself is far too restrictive and I'd need an instructor to fly with me to any new towered airport, c) it's only worth getting if you can't get a 3rd class medical.

My interest in flying for now, is strictly for fun, VFR, close to home, and with one passenger. Sure I can daydream of flying 2-3 friends to the bahamas for the weekend, but that's not really in the cards anytime soon - especially on a miniscule budget as I have and no chance of owning a plane.

The majority of people I've spoken with about GA - as opposed to major airline flight - seem to view the activity as rather risky. Naturally nobody can determine what level of risk is acceptable to each individual. There are many statistics and depending on how they are looked at, the numbers suggest different things. How do some of you weigh and assess the risks of GA?

According to the FAA site, some practices such as the hard turn back to the airstrip after an engine failure on takeoff, are questionable and likely to cause stalls and accidents. Yet I read of student pilots being asked or taught to do this. How does one, as a novice, really appraise a CFI and know whether the instruction is good or not?

[jnmeade]

Go up for your intro flight and see how you like it. If you like it, you can fly anything as long as a CFI is with you, so don't worry about making a choice right away. Before you solo, you will probably want to make a choice but that's weeks and months away. You'll probably get a ton of advice, much of which will confuse you. You don't need to make up your mind yet.

None of us think we're going to die in an airplane accident or we'd never get in one. They are riskier than cars - maybe like a motorcycle. The risk is to an overwhelming extent controllable by the pilot. If you are not comfortable with a flight - don't make it. You'll note that most errors are attributed to pilot error, so you are the big factor in whether you fly safely or not.

An "impossible turn" is one of the things pilots like to argue about. You don't need to make one unless you are a glider pilot - they do have to demonstrate a return at 200', but no CFI is going to make you do one in a small plane. The first 40-80 hours is quite regimented. By the time you wonder about this question you'll have a lot more knowledge.

Pick a CFI like you pick a doctor, lawyer or mechanic. Ask around. How long have they been in the job? What kind of experience? Ask as many of their students as you can find.

A CFI is supposed to teach from a syllabus. Some have theirs in their head, some use a rigid outline. Most are in between. Flight Schools lilke a Part 141 school have a very fixed syllabus. Part 61, indiividual CFI's, may be more flexible. You should know before each lesson what to expect. At the end of the lesson you should get a critique and an assignment for next time.

You'll get swamped by advice.

[3Dreaming]

Welcome to the forum. I hope you enjoy your introductory ride.

I'm amazed at the lack of knowledge some people in the business have. You only need an instructor to fly to each towered airport as a student. After you have a Sport Pilot license one endorsement covers all towered airports that you can fly into.

As for safety I think that an airplane is safer than a motorcycle. In an airplane you don't have other drivers trying to kill you. I think the safety is a lot better than the impression given by the media. If someone in California dies in a motorcycle or car accident you will never hear about it, but have your 6 year old son retract your landing gear on landing roll out and it's all over the national media.

[drseti]

You only need an instructor to fly to each towered airport as a student. After you have a Sport Pilot license one endorsement covers all towered airports that you can fly into.

Tom is mostly correct. Of course, you can get endorsed for Class D (towered) airports after you get your license. You can also get that endorsement while still a student pilot, and may choose to do so (although most of my students prefer to get the checkride out of the way first).

Now that that's out of the way...

Welcome to the forums! Good to have you aboard. Do post after your intro lesson, and let us know how you liked it.

[3Dreaming]

From 61.94 (a), (5). I think this covers the sport pilot student part.
(5) Ground and flight training for the specific airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace for which the solo flight is authorized, if applicable, within the 90-day period preceding the date of the flight at that airport. The flight and ground training must be received at the specific airport for which solo flight is authorized.

The endorsement required by 61.325 covers after the sport pilot certificate. Some instructors will sign off for just one type of airspace, but the way I read it you have one sign off and you must provide training for all 3. It also does not say the training must be in a specific airspace, or at a specific airport, other than 3 take offs and landings at an airport with an operating control tower.

[Jack Tyler]

Adriana, welcome to the Forum. And to General Aviation flying. As was suggested above, I'd encourage you to see what you think of your first flight experience - short tho' it will be, given it's a Discovery Flight. And then take things one step at a time.

If you read through the threads here, one trend you will see repeated over and over is the limited acceptance of Sport Pilot training and the SP license by the established flight schools. These training programs originally invested in Private Pilot licensing, picked instructors capable of providing PP instruction, and have the expense of owning and operating aircraft intended for PP flying. The part of the GA industry that worked to create the SP license and the LSA class of a/c didn't need to get buy-in from a majority of these schools. Insofar as those schools & existing CFI's, this is an industry development that plopped into their laps, uninvited. So now they are supposed to buy LSA's and add another curriculum to their program, even tho' the SP curriculum requires fewer training hours and so less revenue? As you can see, the dynamic somewhat soured some training programs and generates negative comments that really aren't directly related to the promise of Sport Aviation and the value of the SP license. But one consequence of this negative reaction is that there are far fewer LSA a/c to rent, after a new SP earns his/her license, than is true for a new PP. That is a factor you should research before deciding on which license you pursue.

Here are two pieces of really good news for you, as it fits your timing perfectly. The two main GA member organizations in our country have just introduced flight training orientation programs intended for folks who want to know what GA flying is all about.
-- the EAA recently announced their Eagle Flight program and this will be delivered by local EAA chapters just like their Young Eagles program, including an active EAA chapter that does lots of YE Flights out of KSPG (Albert Whitted Airport in downtown St. Pete). You'll find this discussed on the eaa.org website, perhaps by starting here: http://www.eaa.org/news/2011/2011-11-17 ... lights.asp
-- AOPA is 'the' GA member organization (400,000+ members) in the U.S. and has just launched its AV8RS program specifically directed at teens, and this will add more introductory, educational info on starting a flight training program on their website (aopa.org). But more importantly for you, if the first flight 'clicks' for you, is to join AOPA as a student pilot. Initial membership is free, you receive an excellent Flight Training mag every month (digital or paper), and it opens up AOPA's website, which is full of on-line seminars and other useful web content for all pilots. A good place to stick your toe in the water is here: http://www.aopa.org/learntofly/index.html

It wasn't supposed to work out this way but, until the SP license program is more fully deployed nationwide, an aspiring student needs to consider not just which license will meet all their initial needs but also which license(s) are well supported - with positive, committed CFIs and rental a/c - in their area. So my advice is to be a wise shopper as well as (and perhaps before becoming) a highly motivated student. And in case it isn't mentioned elsewhere, be sure your financial resources to *complete* your chosen license program are certain before you begin. Many students spend more on training than is needed, simply because the ebb & flow of their funds directly impacts the ebb & flow of their learning curve.

Good luck to you!

[drseti]

You're right, Tom, that the student pilot Class D signoff is airport specific. Once a licensed Sport Pilot, you can get a blanket airspace signoff.

As for training in all types of airspace, I have developed a fairly detailed curriculum (1-week course), which I know goes beyond the requirements of the FAR, but is intended to make the pilot competent and comfortable in D, C, and B airspace. The curriculum is at http://avsport.org/about/airspace.htm, and other flight schools are welcome to use it. Since AvSport is an FAA Safety Team approved training provider, this 1-week course qualifies for an entire phase of FAASTeam Wings (as well as satisfying a Flight Review).

[Adriana]

Hello and thank you for your thoughtful and most helpful responses.

Remarkably this is the first time I've been able to ask specific questions of knowledgeable pilots. Incredible how the internet opens up doors at times!

In no particular order, a few responses of my own to your responses

Ironically I was a long-time motorcycle rider. Several years ago I stopped riding entirely on public roads and only rode in controlled track environments (ala Laguna Seca, Homestead Motorsports, etc). I found myself no longer comfortable with my personal risk level on the street.

The clarification on airspace restrictions was very helpful. Knowing that there's a blanket signoff for towered airspace sounds far less restrictive than how the school operator portrayed things....his example was i'd have to get an instructor to certify me for each individual airport, regardless of having the full sp certification (as opposed to merely student pilot cert.).

I can understand that the SPL raises some business questions for school operators. Less potential revenue while not really reducing costs. Having been a SBO though, I like to think a somewhat less profitable part of business can be grown and/or open doors for new business. I'm sure some SPL holders go back and pick up a PPL at some point as well as renting LS/A's. I'd be more likely to return to an outfit that was positive during my prior training.

Regarding the selection of a CFI, I've only visited one outfit (Bay Air Flying Service) and that's at by far the closest airport to me....Albert Whitted (minutes away actually). I met with one instructor who seemed nice and answered some of my questions. The only caveat is apparently he's got < 3 months experience. I should probably visit other schools in the area.

I had no idea about the EAA Eagle Flight program. That said, having read up on it now, what a great idea to cultivate interest! Most people know little about GA, I certainly did until recently. I'm right by Albert Whitted and contacted the local chapter.

Getting a SPL seems like a reasonable start from what I'm gathering. Assuming I proceed, I read that all of my dual hours would count towards a PPL too. While the solos wouldn't as I'd be in an LSA - still that's a chunk of hours that could easily go towards a PPL if I wanted one later.

Budget is a big reason why the SPL is appealing. I know I have enough funds, assuming I make decent progress, to actually finish it.

Again, thank you for the very helpful comments and suggestions.

[CharlieTango]

Getting a SPL seems like a reasonable start from what I'm gathering. Assuming I proceed, I read that all of my dual hours would count towards a PPL too. While the solos wouldn't as I'd be in an LSA - still that's a chunk of hours that could easily go towards a PPL if I wanted one later.

Your dual hours would count only if the instructor is a CFI or better. Sport pilot instructor would not count towards PPL.

I think you are wrong on solo's not counting too it probably requires a CFI sign off and then it counts.

[drseti]

I read that all of my dual hours would count towards a PPL too.

Be very cautious about that assumption, as it is only conditionally true. The Sport Pilot rule created a new class of instructor license, under FAR 61 Subpart K (the so-called "Sport Pilot Instructor"). The traditional CFI is licensed under Subpart H. As the rule currently stands, all training received from a Subpart H instructor counts toward higher ratings. Not so for training received from Subpart K instructors. There is a petition before the FAA to change this (submitted by EAA, AOPA, and NAFI, and drafted by several of us on this forum), but it could take years to be acted upon, if at all. So for now, given that you may want to go on beyond the Sport Pilot rating, make sure your selected flight school uses Subpart H CFIs.

The flight schools that are most supportive of the Sport Pilot movement tend to have a structured Private Pilot add-on curriculum, so you'll get maximum bang for your buck. Something else to ask about when you shop around for a flight school.

[Adriana]

Hi, these are interesting points!

My assumption has been that as the school I visited only caters to PPL students (at least officially in response to my question of whether they like to work with SPL students), that all of their CFI's are subpart 'H'. I probably should not make that assumption and actually ask for specifics.

When I visit another school, especially if they are more amiable to SPL and regularly with with SPL students, then I will definitely ask.

I'll also ask for clarification on how the solo hours might count depending on what sort of CFI I had worked with previously during ground & dual.

[3Dreaming]

Solo hours count regardless of which kind of airplane your flying or which kind of instructor you have.

[mhaleem]

Just so you know a lot of people make a big fuss over training with a CFI Sport versus a CFI subpart H instructor. The reality is that according to statistics, the average person obtains a private pilot certificate in the 60-70 hour range (the mininum hours needed for a private license is 40 hours). The minimum time to obtain a light sport rating is 20 hours, which includes 15 with an instructor and 5 solo. Even if you are an above average student and train with a CFI sport instructor, there is still a remaining 20 hours needed to go from a sport license to a private. The additional time needed to advance from sport to private will eat up a lot of the additional 20 hours needed following training with a CFI Sport Instructor. Going from sport to private will require several hours of night flight training, several hours of additional cross countries, 3 hours of flight test preparation, several hours of basic attitude instrument flying, and a couple of hours for transition from a light sport aircraft to a normal category aircraft if you decide to transition (you can do private pilot training in many light sport aircraft), etc. With a sport pilot license in hand you will transfer many skills such as takeoffs, landings, etc which should greatly decrease the amount of time needed for the private. Many who promote the argument of training with a CFI subpart H versus a CFI sport rarely give all the facts to the prospective customer. I'm sure money is a factor.

[drseti]

Even if you are an above average student and train with a CFI sport instructor, there is still a remaining 20 hours needed to go from a sport license to a private.

Yes, this is true. For someone going straight from the Sport to the Private pilot, it probably doesn't make a lot of difference. My concern is for the Sport Pilots who get their licenses (with either a Subpart H or a Subpart K CFI), and then fly a while, gaining a good deal of experience, before continuing on for the Private.

I've seen these seasoned Sport Pilots (with perhaps 50 to 100 hours of PIC time) then satisfy the few additional Private Pilot requirements, including the couple of hours of required instruction within the previous 60 days in preparation for the checkride, in as little as 10 hours of additional dual instruction.

Let's say their initial training was with a CFI/SP. Now, if they get those ten hours of night instruction, hood work, VOR navigation, and advanced maneuvers (with a Subpart H CFI), and then apply for the Private practical test, they're a whole bunch of instructional hours short.

Of course, everyone's situation is unique. Just throwing out some things to think about, if the student knows he or she will be going on for advanced ratings.

I still want to see the EAA/AOPA/NAFI proposal acted upon, to remove the possible problem completely.

[mhaleem]

Am I correct in that if they are short instructional hours, it will only be in the neighborhood of 10 hours needed? In that rare case, I guess flying an additional 10 hours could be overkill, but how often does that happen? Please correct me if my math is wrong.