Hello from Western WA!

[tu16]

Hi,

I'm completely new to flying. Not even a student pilot yet. Spent last decade mostly cruising local waters in a sailboat. Recently I've accidentally learned about LSA rule - and this got me really interested in the subject. I'm currently learning and researching everything I can about sport aviation - LSA planes, training, ownership, insurance, etc. And that's what brings me here - it looks like a great place to ask questions, interact and learn from experts and students experiences.

My current goal - within 2 years if everything works out, to get trained and certificated as CFI-SP (with at least 150 hrs) and embark on a 3-week long range cross-country "cruise" in my own light plane with a sun and a wind, and air-harbors in between... Just like in a sailboat , only ocean is above ports... :)

I would really want PPL privilieges, skills and a bit heavier planes - but I'm already just over 50 and just wouldn't want invest anything into it with FAA holding a kill switch created from my medical records. I believe I can responsibly manage my health on my own w/o FAA getting between me, my doctor, my finances and my lifestyle. LSA seems like acceptable compromise to me and a a great additional stimulus to keep weight down :)

My current question: If owning a plane is in the plan - and I'd like to own some specific plane model, equipped as I want for cross-country cruising - say, Flight Design CTLS or Remos GX - would it make sense to buy it earlier in the training and use it in training (assuming I can't find one to train in from a local flight school)? Or would it be more prudent to see if I indeed have what it takes to get an SPL in available from local flight school plane - and then get the plane to own, find an instructor qualified to teach this make/model and then start transition training? And what about insurance in these cases?

:) Not sure if all this even makes sense... I think it's time just to shut up and get back to reading and learning from other members of this board.

Great to be here - looking forward to gathering from you as much wisdom as I can!

Thanks!
Alex.

[drseti]

I'm currently learning and researching everything I can about sport aviation - LSA planes, training, ownership, insurance, etc.

Research is always a great place to start, Alex. Welcome to the Sport Pilot community. I invite you to browse my website, http://AvSport.org. Lots of Sport Pilot FAQs and related training documents to help bring you up to speed.

My current goal - within 2 years if everything works out, to get trained and certificated as CFI-SP (with at least 150 hrs) and embark on a 3-week long range cross-country "cruise" in my own light plane

Sounds like an entirely reasonable (and achievable) goal.

I believe I can responsibly manage my health on my own w/o FAA getting between me, my doctor, my finances and my lifestyle. LSA seems like acceptable compromise to me

That's precisely the attitude that brought most of us old farts to this juncture.

would it make sense to buy it earlier in the training and use it in training (assuming I can't find one to train in from a local flight school)? Or would it be more prudent to see if I indeed have what it takes to get an SPL in available from local flight school plane - and then get the plane to own, find an instructor qualified to teach this make/model and then start transition training?

I'd counsel a compromise. Do your pre-solo training in a rental aircraft (or maybe more than one, if you want to sample different brands before you buy). After you've completed your first solo, if you like the plane, you can shop for one in which to complete your training.

And what about insurance in these cases?

Once you've soloed and passed your written, I think insurance will become more affordable. And, be sure to talk to your agent about a rate adjustment once you pass your practical!

I'd also suggest you join EAA, and see about their insurance plan, when the time comes. For my flight school aircraft, the EAA plan saved me a whopping 32.4%, compared to the best premium my regular insurance broker was able to quote.

[tu16]

Thanks, Paul!

Excellent site and the counsel as usual! I've been learning a lot from your very informative posts on this board too.

Another question, if anybody's willing do me favor to chime in - what do you think - does one really need a "ground school"? Can just ordering a Sport Pilot Kit, studying on my own and then taking a paid written test would be an option? Or w/o taking a ground school one usually has no means to get to a written test?

(I'm not trying to skimp on an instructor experience here - I'd rather pay an instructor for detailed pre-flight and post-flight lesson briefings than for a written test preparation, that can be better served as a "programmed" self-study module... I think this would a better/proper context for this. )

What do you guys think?

Thanks again!
Alex.

[drseti]

does one really need a "ground school"? Can just ordering a Sport Pilot Kit, studying on my own and then taking a paid written test would be an option?

Alex, not everybody has the discipline to succeed at self-study. It might work for you, if you can set a rigid schedule for yourself, and stick to it. To take the written test, you will, however, need either a graduation certificate from a ground school, or an instructor's recommendation. If your flight instructor is aware of your self-study regimen, he or she will probably sign you off for the written. Somehow, it seems to me you're sufficiently motivated to make this work - especially if you interleave it with flight instruction, and check in with your CFI if you run into any roadblocks.

Good luck!

[scottj]

Yes, you need to take a formal ground school. The more students we run through our ground school the more the data shows they are better, safer, more competent, pilots than the self-study book crowd.

We run a 12 week ground school, Monday evenings. It's not long enough and we always have more info to go over than time permits. Especially when we bring in outside speakers and have field trips for the class.

You get what you pay for in life. Don't sell yourself short and buy into the DVD and book only marketing. Your life depends upon good training and a solid foundation. There is no such thing as a "free ground school" either.

In the end, it will be cheaper as well. What you miss by not taking a group study ground school, you will pay for in private ground lessons. No CFI worth his salt will sign someone off for a practical exam without spending time going over "ground" study items.

You simply cannot learn what you need to know by reading a book. Do you think your Dentist or Plumber simply read the book or did he study with other professionals and students?

Yes, you should buy an airplane early in your flight training. Not only is owning cheaper than renting, but you will enjoy the pride of owning your own plane. There are also income tax advantages to consider that will offset your flight training and ownership costs.

[tu16]

Paul and ScottJ - I really appreciate your input. I hear you - ground school it is then! :) I'm really interested only in getting the best training I can. I only hope that local ground school is as good as yours :)

It was perfect day in Western Washington today. Not only it was sunny, warm and calm - but I also had a chance to go up for introductory flight - twice! :) And I enjoyed every second of it... :) Stiil can't wipe that stupid kiddy grin from ear to ear off my face... :)

The first flight was in Tecnam Sierra. Despite seemingly narrow cockpit my 6'3" surprisingly fit very comfortably there and at MTOW with me inside she took off like a bat and was climbing like there was nothing to it. And flying like a dream too... One word - Wow!...

The second was a demo flight in Remos GX offered for sale , which I expected to be very comfortable fit for me with wider cockpit, etc. Again, surprise - it turned out to be a terrible fit for me. With seat pushed back for me my head was pressed against the protruding beam there on the top and I could barely turn my head. :) Plus the well for feet turned out to be much narrower than in Sierra due to a wide panel between the seats eating up all this additional width - and this made it for an awkward posture on top of trouble with the fit on top... Oh well - it was a blast anyway and I liked Dynon panels she had :)

I really would like to try out a CTLS - but it seems none is available in our neck of the woods. Portland, OR seems to be the closest I can get to it. Maybe some day I'll just drive there... Or maybe I need to become a sales rep for them here :) :)

Anyway it was a good day in Western WA and here's a picture I've snapped today in Sierra to prove it :) No doubts :) :


P.S. ScottJ, guys - I'd be interested to learn about possible tax advantages in aircraft ownership you've mentioned too...

[3Dreaming]

Alex, did you posted a question about light sport aircraft on a sailboat forum? If so it prompted a visit from a fellow to check it out here. Tom

[scottj]

I am not a CPA or an Attorney, just a guy who sells airplanes. So you should check this out with your own advisers.

Any business that purchases equipment, is allowed to deduct or depreciate the cost of materials and equipment. If you were to become an "aircraft dealer" or form your own "aircraft leasing company" that leases airplane(s) to flight schools, there are some tax advantages to consider.

I have several new and used aircraft available for your consideration. www.lsanorth.com/products.htm Let's make a deal.

**

Gather a few friends and form your own flying club and share the cost of airplane ownership. Hire a flight instructor and let your airplane pay for itself! Email [email protected] for more information. An airplane rented out, or in a flight school leaseback program, for just a few hours per week could pay for itself, not to mention any income tax deductions that are also available. Attached is an Excel spreadsheet that will assist you in reviewing rental opportunities and operating expenses. Follow this link to sample CTsw Purchase Order Form. ** All prices subject to change without notice.

http://www.lsanorth.com/Flightschool%20Spreadsheet.xls

**

[tu16]

Alex, did you posted a question about light sport aircraft on a sailboat forum? If so it prompted a visit from a fellow to check it out here. Tom

:) Nope. I assume just mentioning "sailboat" on this forum would bring gazillion of Google hits from sailors. :)

If any of them would discover LSA for themselves as I did I think it would be good for light sport aviation. Sailors are good potential candidates for LSA - US Sailing Association skipper certification is similar in study regiment and marine knowledge structure and testing to SPL certication and they are more interested enjoying the process of getting from A to B in uncomfortable and death defying circumstances than actually getting somewhere... :)

[tu16]

I am not a CPA or an Attorney, just a guy who sells airplanes. So you should check this out with your own advisers.

Any business that purchases equipment, is allowed to deduct or depreciate the cost of materials and equipment. If you were to become an "aircraft dealer" or form your own "aircraft leasing company" that leases airplane(s) to flight schools, there are some tax advantages to consider.

I have several new and used aircraft available for your consideration. www.lsanorth.com/products.htm Let's make a deal.

**

Gather a few friends and form your own flying club and share the cost of airplane ownership. Hire a flight instructor and let your airplane pay for itself! Email [email protected] for more information. An airplane rented out, or in a flight school leaseback program, for just a few hours per week could pay for itself, not to mention any income tax deductions that are also available. Attached is an Excel spreadsheet that will assist you in reviewing rental opportunities and operating expenses. Follow this link to sample CTsw Purchase Order Form. ** All prices subject to change without notice.

http://www.lsanorth.com/Flightschool%20Spreadsheet.xls

**

Scott, you're definately well ahead of me on all counts. :) I'm also not a CPA, or an attorney, or a pilot , do not sell aircraft, do not have any advisors yet, other than you guys - just an engineer who wants to afford to learn to fly in my own light plane. :)

I'm seriously interested in checking out a lightly used CTSW and would like to find one localy for a demo flight first - but do not plan to buy this year yet. I'll probably follow Paul's advice and wait until I progress in training far enough before plunging into ownership abyss (if my wife doesn't divorce me because of that - she's too familiar with financial "benefits" of a boat ownership :) )

I'm definately interested in the ways to offset costs of ownership - but so far it seems that it would require extremely aggressive rental/leaseback which is not quite compatible with my goals for ownership. I'd be interested to hear if there are ways to arrange for a limited light use leasing - the one that would actually caps monthly/yearly leasing to highly qualified individuals, to, say, just to <250hrs/yr and retain complete scheduling control (say, blocking out most weekends, etc.) It seems to me though, that the "light use" leasing, even if possible, wouldn't even cover increase in insurance premium going from private owner's to commercial, making it then pointless.

That said, I freely admit my complete ignorance in these matters and would consider any feedback, input, advise, counsel etc. in these matters from the pros, owners here - a huge favor for me.

Thanks in advance,
Alex.

[drseti]

I'd be interested to hear if there are ways to arrange for a limited light use leasing - the one that would actually caps monthly/yearly leasing to highly qualified individuals, to, say, just to <250hrs/yr and retain complete scheduling control

One way to accomplish that is to set up a flying club, which you run. This would amount essentially to you taking on a number of hand-selected partners, who buy in and pay monthly dues (as do you) into a fund that pays maintenance, hangar, and insurance costs. Then each partner/member (again, including you) pays a predetermined hourly "rental" cost. This way, you're renting from yourselves, and are free to sell your membership to another individual (who's acceptable to the rest). AOPA has lots of information on setting up such partnerships. Of course, this only works if you live in an area where there are two or three other LSA enthusiasts looking to do something similar.

It seems to me though, that the "light use" leasing, even if possible, wouldn't even cover increase in insurance premium going from private owner's to commercial, making it then pointless.

Alex, insurance for a club aircraft is only slightly more costly than the premium on an individually owned one. But a commercial policy is way more expensive. As an example: when I bought my SportStar, my premium for personal use was just over $1500/yr. When I got the commercial policy for the flight school, that went up to $5103 (and that's a bargain rate -- first quote for instruction and rental coverage was $7550!)

I'd say take some flight lessons first, enjoy, and the rest will fall into place. Good luck.

[tu16]

I'd say take some flight lessons first, enjoy, and the rest will fall into place. Good luck.

Thanks, Paul - will do! :)

A couple more questions if I may : if I am to introduce my own plane to finish my training - of the different make/model that my flight school uses and my CFI didn't fly it before - will the CFI himself need some transition training to this plane, or is s/he by default qualified to fly any LSA?

Also: How does my owner's insurance work for CFI during training in my own plane? Any additional hoops to go through wrt insurance - for me or for my CFI?

Thanks in advance!

Alex

[drseti]

will the CFI himself need some transition training to this plane, or is s/he by default qualified to fly any LSA?

According to the FARs, if your CFI has at least five hours logged in a make and model within a given set of aircraft, no additional training or hours are required to instruct in a different make and model in the same set. That's what the regs say. From a practical (and safety) point of view, I would never want to instruct in an aircraft in which I had not myself been checked out by someone knowledgeable. When I bought the SportStar for my flight school, I had plenty of hours in other acft in the same set, and two hours of SportStar time, but I still got myself a three-hour checkout with a CFI experienced in that particular plane. Even so, and even with thousands of hours logged (but mostly in heavier, high performance planes), for the first ten hours, I realized I was still a student pilot in that plane.

Also: How does my owner's insurance work for CFI during training in my own plane? Any additional hoops to go through wrt insurance - for me or for my CFI?

Most insurance policies include "any certified flight instructor" in the Open Pilot clause. Be sure to check with your insurance agent about this when buying a policy. But be aware that many Sport Pilot instructors are not rated as CFIs, so may not be covered under that clause. Check with your instructor to make sure he or she is a CFI, not just a CFI-SP. This will also ensure that hours logged with that instructor will count toward higher ratings. (I'm not saying many CFI-SPs are not also good instructors; just talking about insurance and regs here.)

[FastEddieB]

I taught classes to prepare students for written exams (Private, Commercial & Instrument) at Miami-Dade Community College in S FL.

You might want to call around and see if any local colleges or junior colleges offer comparable classes.

[tu16]

...From a practical (and safety) point of view, I would never want to instruct in an aircraft in which I had not myself been checked out by someone knowledgeable. When I bought the SportStar for my flight school, I had plenty of hours in other acft in the same set, and two hours of SportStar time, but I still got myself a three-hour checkout with a CFI experienced in that particular plane. Even so, and even with thousands of hours logged (but mostly in heavier, high performance planes), for the first ten hours, I realized I was still a student pilot in that plane...

Thanks, Paul!

Sounds like logistics of bringing into a training as a student pilot a plane that is not locally available can get pretty complicated... Looks like w/o involvement and commitment on part of a flight school involving transitional training of a local CFI by non-local instructor from non-local dealership this can be tough.

Do you think a leaseback to a school can make a local school interested in investing into their CFI transitional training? (Not that I ever wanted my prospective plane be put on a leaseback - but it can make sense for training considering factors above )

Also have anybody heard of a shared ownership schema between a private owner and a flight school as an alternative to a standard leaseback? :) I'm curious if this can make sense to a flight school for a plane it doesn't have and if insurance splits between the owners in this case - one of them using it for commercial purposes and another - for private... (Don't laugh :) - I do realize that I have no idea what I'm talking about... ) But I would appreciate any feedback from those who do know what they are talking about...

Thanks again,
Alex.