Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

On September 1, 2004 the FAA inaugurated a new pilot certificate dubbed the "sport pilot" that makes learning to fly easier and more affordable that ever. Intended primarily for recreational use, you can now become a pilot with as little as 20 hours of flight instruction! In addition, the FAA also created a new category of affordable "light-sport aircraft"!

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby drseti » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:44 am

Thanks for clarifying, Bryan. I think we're all on the same page here.

As for completing a SP in 20, or a PP in 40, I wouldn't say it can't be done, but my experience has been somewhat different. That could well be a factor of the age of my students. Most are in their 60s and 70s, checking flying off their bucket lists. For whatever reason, it just takes us old guys longer to acquire new skills. I'm sure that those of you who train bright youngsters see very different results.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby 3Dreaming » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:05 am

drseti wrote:OTOH, we were told in my latest DPE training course (last year) that we couldn't give PP or above checkrides to applicants without a current FAA medical. No mention of Basic Med being accepted. And, last time I processed one, IACRA required a medical certificate to be entered for everything except Sport, glider, or balloon.


(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate—

(iii) When taking a practical test in an aircraft for a recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, or airline transport pilot certificate, or for a flight instructor certificate, except when operating under the conditions and limitations set forth in §61.113(i); or

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby bryancobb » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am

yard parking spot.jpg
Keeping it at My House
yard parking spot.jpg (196.39 KiB) Viewed 320 times
drseti wrote: If you own an ultralight-type aircraft that's too heavy for part 103, you may be able to get it N-Numbered and legally fly it as an LSA and log the time and count it toward higher pilots certificates.

That window of opportunity closed years ago


So let's say a guy want to sell you a Quicksilver "fat ultralight" with 2 seats. It's not N-Numbered. You have him disassemble it and give you a Bill of Sale for "Miscellaneous Parts."

It's entirely possible to build it in a way that proves you did more than 51% and get an N-Number and Airworthiness Certificate.
You will need to:
* Complete the FAA's Amateur-Built Fabrication and Assembly Checklist and it must show you did 51%+
* Your Bill of Sale 8050-2 needs to state "Miscellaneous Parts"
* Your 8050-88 indicates you built more than 51% from Miscellaneous Parts
* Roman Numeral II(4) in the 8130-6 Application for Airworthiness Certificate has two options that may be appropriate to get it in the LSA cat.
(2) Amateur Built or (8A) Existing aircraft without an Airworthiness Certificate and does not meet Part 103.

I have built an EAB from Miscellaneous Parts and got it an Airworthiness Certificate. It would not qualify as an LSA because it is a helicopter, but if it had been a fixed wing, it would be LSA eligible. Here it is in the picture above.
Bryan Cobb
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby Wm.Ince » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:54 pm

bryancobb wrote:. . . I have built an EAB from Miscellaneous Parts and got it an Airworthiness Certificate. It would not qualify as an LSA because it is a helicopter, but if it had been a fixed wing, it would be LSA eligible. Here it is in the picture above.

Nice looking machine!
Powerplant?

Welcome to the forum Bryan.
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby ShawnM » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:26 pm

Very cool Brian. I owned a Rotorway 162F for a couple of years back in 2005 and the started the turbine conversion to the Solar T-62. Since I dont see the turbine exhaust on your mini 500 I assume you have a Rotax in it? I remember them being a bit underpowered with the 582 but maybe things have changed over the years. There was another variant for an engine but I can't remember what it was, Yamaha maybe. I've seen a few with the 2A-1 in it as well. I do remember that early on there were many issues with the mini 500 and hopefully they've sorted them out.

I miss my helicopter sometimes but I like the speed improvement that my SportCruiser gives me over the Rotorway. :mrgreen:

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby drseti » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:56 pm

3Dreaming wrote:except when operating under the conditions and limitations set forth in §61.113(i);[/b] or


Which paragraph says:

(i) A private pilot may act as pilot in command of an aircraft without holding a medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter provided the pilot holds a valid U.S. driver's license, meets the requirements of § 61.23(c)(3), and complies with this section and all of the following conditions and limitations:


That says private pilot. I was talking about taking the checkride. At the point of initiating a practical test, the applicant is still a student pilot (or maybe a sport pilot, upgrading). And a chekride applicant serves as PIC (yes, that's in the FARs, as well as the FAA Order under which I operate as a DPE). So, I see no way for that person to get licensed under Basic Med.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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AvSport.org
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby drseti » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:09 pm

bryancobb wrote:So let's say a guy want to sell you a Quicksilver "fat ultralight" with 2 seats. It's not N-Numbered. You have him disassemble it and give you a Bill of Sale for "Miscellaneous Parts."


Clearly not the intent of the regulation, else why did the FAR allowing conversion of a fat ultralight to an ELSA get written with an expiration date (now long passed)? OK, maybe you'll get away with it going E-AB, but you'd be taking a big risk.

Isn't there now (since the conversion rules expired) a provision in the FAA Order for issuing an airworthiness certificate that states the aircraft must never have flown under Part 103? You'd have to claim that this was a new aircraft that had never flown before. It wouldn't become an issue until there was an accident, but then I'm sure you'd get nailed in the investigation (and the lawsuit). Too risky for my tastes!
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby 3Dreaming » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:16 pm

drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:except when operating under the conditions and limitations set forth in §61.113(i);[/b] or


Which paragraph says:

(i) A private pilot may act as pilot in command of an aircraft without holding a medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter provided the pilot holds a valid U.S. driver's license, meets the requirements of § 61.23(c)(3), and complies with this section and all of the following conditions and limitations:


That says private pilot. I was talking about taking the checkride. At the point of initiating a practical test, the applicant is still a student pilot (or maybe a sport pilot, upgrading). And a chekride applicant serves as PIC (yes, that's in the FARs, as well as the FAA Order under which I operate as a DPE). So, I see no way for that person to get licensed under Basic Med.


(iii) When taking a practical test in an aircraft for a recreational pilot, private pilot, commercial pilot, or airline transport pilot certificate, or for a flight instructor certificate, except when operating under the conditions and limitations set forth in §61.113(i);

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby 3Dreaming » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:22 pm

drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:except when operating under the conditions and limitations set forth in §61.113(i);[/b] or


Which paragraph says:

(i) A private pilot may act as pilot in command of an aircraft without holding a medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter provided the pilot holds a valid U.S. driver's license, meets the requirements of § 61.23(c)(3), and complies with this section and all of the following conditions and limitations:


That says private pilot. I was talking about taking the checkride. At the point of initiating a practical test, the applicant is still a student pilot (or maybe a sport pilot, upgrading). And a chekride applicant serves as PIC (yes, that's in the FARs, as well as the FAA Order under which I operate as a DPE). So, I see no way for that person to get licensed under Basic Med.


If you use that logic then you can't operate under BasicMed, because you are a commercial pilot not private pilot.

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby TimTaylor » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:19 pm

Someone please post the FAR that says a student pilot can take a flight test for Private Pilot using Basic Med. If there is not an FAR that says that, I don't think they can. 61.113 is not it because that is talking about Private Pilot privileges. Again, logic says they should be able to do it, but where do the FAR's say they can?

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby bryancobb » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:42 pm

ShawnM wrote:Very cool Brian. I owned a Rotorway 162F for a couple of years back in 2005 and the started the turbine conversion to the Solar T-62. Since I dont see the turbine exhaust on your mini 500 I assume you have a Rotax in it? I remember them being a bit underpowered with the 582 but maybe things have changed over the years. There was another variant for an engine but I can't remember what it was, Yamaha maybe. I've seen a few with the 2A-1 in it as well. I do remember that early on there were many issues with the mini 500 and hopefully they've sorted them out.

I miss my helicopter sometimes but I like the speed improvement that my SportCruiser gives me over the Rotorway. :mrgreen:


Well, here's the skinny on my Mini LOL. I owned one in 1997 & 98. I flew it 100 hours and was very pleased even though It had some teething pains that were an inconvenience. I sold it right at the time Fetters got shut down for defaulting on his Small Business Administration loan.
I gained a wealth of knowledge back then.

Fast forward to 2013. I bought this brand new in the crate kit off Ebay for $5000. It was an early S/N so I also bought a high S/N rust bucket with no engine that had been sitting in a barn for 10 years. It had all the production change parts so I removed them and parted out the rest for the same price I paid for the whole helicopter. It had a nav-com and xpndr in it. Then I found a 125 hour Bluehead 582 that was still on a Rans S-12 and flying weekly.
He wanted to upscale to a 912 and I bought the engine and EIS (EIS on it since 0 hours.) Powerfin Prop, C-Gearbox, and Jett-Hot Exhaust for $4000.
I sold the prop, gearbox, muffler, oil tank and mounts, and RK-400 clutch for $2500 and so I had $1500 in my 125 hour engine and EIS.
I bought a set of Gear Ring/Pinion from Arrow Gear who makes gears for Bell and McDonnell Douglas. These jewels were $1700. I replaced the Revolution ones and put new aerospace grade bearings in the gearbox. I also added an oil cooler and pump to circulate filtered gearbox oil to upper bearing and in between pinion bearings. All-in, I have just shy of $15000 in it.

I got the Airworthiness Certificate in 2016 and have been flying it ever since. I have to be very careful because my yard is a confined area and I WEIGH 260 POUNDS! It weighs 520. My experience in 1997 and since 2016 with the 582 is generally good. In the first few minutes after my first takeoff in 1997, I almost wrecked it due to low rotor RPM! It scared me. I got out and dissected what had just happened. I remembered my Elsinore dirt bike as a young teen. It was a sick puppy until it "got up on the pipe" and into the power band. That's what had happened. The ROTAX MUST stay at 6300 RPM all the time because if it droops out of the power band, you will never get your RPM back. It started sinking and RPM drooping and had it not been for my Army flight instructor that yelled "RECOVER RPM AT ALL COST!" "DON'T YOU DARE PULL UP ON THAT COLLECTIVE WHEN YOU ROTOR IS DECAYING!" "I DON'T CARE IF YOU HAVE TO DESCEND INTO A CROWD OF PEOPLE!" I would have wrecked it.
It had already started yawing because tail rotor RPM decays almost 5x as fast as the main.

Well, I have NEVER let RPM droop a single time since and enjoy flying around in it. I'll try to stick a couple of videos here even though this is a Sport forum and the Mini is not.

https://youtu.be/vcxUImOpfAs

https://youtu.be/r54vJJ6nwBA
Bryan Cobb

Sport Pilot CFI

Commercial/Instrument Airplane

Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter

Cartersville, Ga

bryandcobb@att.net

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby 3Dreaming » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:07 pm

TimTaylor wrote:Someone please post the FAR that says a student pilot can take a flight test for Private Pilot using Basic Med. If there is not an FAR that says that, I don't think they can. 61.113 is not it because that is talking about Private Pilot privileges. Again, logic says they should be able to do it, but where do the FAR's say they can?


I did! Why would 61.23 say you can take a private pilot checkride with BasicMed, if it doesn't apply to student pilots?

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby TimTaylor » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:21 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Someone please post the FAR that says a student pilot can take a flight test for Private Pilot using Basic Med. If there is not an FAR that says that, I don't think they can. 61.113 is not it because that is talking about Private Pilot privileges. Again, logic says they should be able to do it, but where do the FAR's say they can?


I did! Why would 61.23 say you can take a private pilot checkride with BasicMed, if it doesn't apply to student pilots?

I thought you said 61.113. That's what I referenced.

61.23 makes reference to 61.113 which is about Private Pilot privileges. Can anyone post an FAR that says a student pilot can take a flight test for Private using Basic Med? Again, I think it's logical they should be able to do it, but I don't see where the FAR's say they can. I think this is another example of poorly thought out FAR's with little effort for harmonization.

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby 3Dreaming » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:12 pm

TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Someone please post the FAR that says a student pilot can take a flight test for Private Pilot using Basic Med. If there is not an FAR that says that, I don't think they can. 61.113 is not it because that is talking about Private Pilot privileges. Again, logic says they should be able to do it, but where do the FAR's say they can?


I did! Why would 61.23 say you can take a private pilot checkride with BasicMed, if it doesn't apply to student pilots?

I thought you said 61.113. That's what I referenced.

61.23 makes reference to 61.113 which is about Private Pilot privileges. Can anyone post an FAR that says a student pilot can take a flight test for Private using Basic Med? Again, I think it's logical they should be able to do it, but I don't see where the FAR's say they can. I think this is another example of poorly thought out FAR's with little effort for harmonization.


Can a commercial pilot use BasicMed if they only want to exercise private pilot privileges?

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby 3Dreaming » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:16 pm

TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Someone please post the FAR that says a student pilot can take a flight test for Private Pilot using Basic Med. If there is not an FAR that says that, I don't think they can. 61.113 is not it because that is talking about Private Pilot privileges. Again, logic says they should be able to do it, but where do the FAR's say they can?


I did! Why would 61.23 say you can take a private pilot checkride with BasicMed, if it doesn't apply to student pilots?

I thought you said 61.113. That's what I referenced.

61.23 makes reference to 61.113 which is about Private Pilot privileges. Can anyone post an FAR that says a student pilot can take a flight test for Private using Basic Med? Again, I think it's logical they should be able to do it, but I don't see where the FAR's say they can. I think this is another example of poorly thought out FAR's with little effort for harmonization.


61.89 (d) it says a student pilot may use BasicMed. 61.23 says you can take a private pilot checkride with BasicMed. Seems clear to me.


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