Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

On September 1, 2004 the FAA inaugurated a new pilot certificate dubbed the "sport pilot" that makes learning to fly easier and more affordable that ever. Intended primarily for recreational use, you can now become a pilot with as little as 20 hours of flight instruction! In addition, the FAA also created a new category of affordable "light-sport aircraft"!

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TimTaylor
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:32 am

drseti wrote:You're getting into the weeds here, Tom.
Unless solo, there are no "student pilot privileges" to exercise. Anyone who has either the TSA citizenship endorsement or has met the Alien Flight Student Program background check requirements can receive dual instruction in anything, with or without a medical or driver's license. Only the aircraft limitations dictate what can and can't be done in dual instruction. "Privileges" only apply for solo flight. At that point, yes, in an airplane the drivers license medical limits the student to the SP restrictions.

And Sport Pilot restrictions are the same as student pilot restrictions except for the 10,000 feet limitation which would apply to anyone using a driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical or Basic Med.
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby drseti » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:43 am

Am I excused now?
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby HAPPYDAN » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:07 pm

But now here's an interesting twist. At a place where I began training (years ago) I made it abundantly clear I was pursuing SPL only. Nothing more. But - the owner insisted his insurance required (at least) a 3rd class medical to solo or rent his planes. Period. Sorry, Paul - I couldn't resist!

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:13 pm

TimTaylor wrote:
drseti wrote:You're getting into the weeds here, Tom.
Unless solo, there are no "student pilot privileges" to exercise. Anyone who has either the TSA citizenship endorsement or has met the Alien Flight Student Program background check requirements can receive dual instruction in anything, with or without a medical or driver's license. Only the aircraft limitations dictate what can and can't be done in dual instruction. "Privileges" only apply for solo flight. At that point, yes, in an airplane the drivers license medical limits the student to the SP restrictions.

And Sport Pilot restrictions are the same as student pilot restrictions except for the 10,000 feet limitation which would apply to anyone using a driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical or Basic Med.


And night with appropriate training and endorsements.

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:15 pm

HAPPYDAN wrote:But now here's an interesting twist. At a place where I began training (years ago) I made it abundantly clear I was pursuing SPL only. Nothing more. But - the owner insisted his insurance required (at least) a 3rd class medical to solo or rent his planes. Period. Sorry, Paul - I couldn't resist!


when I started doing sport pilot training in 2006 my insurance carrier had the same limitation. Except I could train and solo a sport pilot student, but as soon as they completed their sport pilot checkride the company required a third class medical.

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:52 pm

drseti wrote:You're getting into the weeds here, Tom.
Unless solo, there are no "student pilot privileges" to exercise. Anyone who has either the TSA citizenship endorsement or has met the Alien Flight Student Program background check requirements can receive dual instruction in anything, with or without a medical or driver's license. Only the aircraft limitations dictate what can and can't be done in dual instruction. "Privileges" only apply for solo flight. At that point, yes, in an airplane the drivers license medical limits the student to the SP restrictions.


Weeds, I don't think so.
I have only been speaking about solo flight. Of course no medical is required for the student to receive flight instruction.

An LSA is just an airplane, just like any other airplane. The fact that it is a LSA doesn't automatically change regulations or pilot privileges. The only time a LSA has any significance over any other airplane is when limitations on the pilot are changed limiting them to only being able to fly a LSA. It is this pilot limitation that determines whether a medical is required.

A student pilot is not required to fly a LSA. They can choose to fly a LSA, but that doesn't automatically change the medical requirements. The medical requirements change when they choose to follow the sport pilot limitations, one of which is the requirement that they must only fly a LSA. They must also follow all the other sport pilot limitations.

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:56 pm

A student with a 3rd class medical could take lessons and solo in both an LSA and a non-LSA. He could be working on a Sport or Private in the LSA and a Private in the non-LSA. He doesn't have to commit just yet. I'm not sure that's what you were saying or implying.

He could also be working on a Sport in the non-LSA up to a point.

He could also be taking lessons in a twin toward a Private.

The FAR's do not prohibit multi-tasking, so let's not put restrictions in that don't exist.
Last edited by TimTaylor on Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:05 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
drseti wrote:You're getting into the weeds here, Tom.
Unless solo, there are no "student pilot privileges" to exercise. Anyone who has either the TSA citizenship endorsement or has met the Alien Flight Student Program background check requirements can receive dual instruction in anything, with or without a medical or driver's license. Only the aircraft limitations dictate what can and can't be done in dual instruction. "Privileges" only apply for solo flight. At that point, yes, in an airplane the drivers license medical limits the student to the SP restrictions.


Weeds, I don't think so.
I have only been speaking about solo flight. Of course no medical is required for the student to receive flight instruction.

An LSA is just an airplane, just like any other airplane. The fact that it is a LSA doesn't automatically change regulations or pilot privileges. The only time a LSA has any significance over any other airplane is when limitations on the pilot are changed limiting them to only being able to fly a LSA. It is this pilot limitation that determines whether a medical is required.

A student pilot is not required to fly a LSA. They can choose to fly a LSA, but that doesn't automatically change the medical requirements. The medical requirements change when they choose to follow the sport pilot limitations, one of which is the requirement that they must only fly a LSA. They must also follow all the other sport pilot limitations.

Well, actually it does. Most LSA are not IFR certified so an Instrument rated pilot cannot fly IFR in an LSA even though he is licensed and current to fly IFR. That is an aircraft specific restriction. Some LSA are not certified for night flight. Some non-LSA are not certified for instrument and/or night flight. So, the aircraft does, at times, automatically change regulations or pilot privileges.

Point being, it is the totality of the pilot's certification, currency, and medical status as well as the aircraft certification and currency, etc. that establishes what can and cannot be done for the flight in question.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:19 pm

TimTaylor wrote:EXAMPLE:

I think I'll take flying lessons (no medical). I get 8 to 10 hours in a C150 and am ready to solo (no medical). My CFI tells me I need a 3rd class FAA medical to solo. I'm not sure I want to do that and haven't decided if I want a Private or Sport, so I find another FBO (or the same FBO) with an LSA (no medical). I get 5 hours or so and my CFI says I'm ready to solo (no medical). I solo the LSA (no medical). I'm now ready to work on cross-country (no medical). I tell my CFI that I'm not sure if I want a Sport or Private so let's make sure the cross-country flights meet both Sport and Private requirements (no medical). I complete my cross-country requirements for Sport and Private (no medical). I also did 3 hours of instrument training before my solo cross-country (no medical).

So, about now, I need to take a written and get my 2 or 3 hours of dual in preparation for the flight test. I think I'll go get a 3rd class medical and my night flight training and go for Private. OR, I think I'll forgo the medical and go for Sport.

I see no violation of FAR's.

EDIT: Just can't fly about 10,000 feet because NO MEDICAL.


As an instructor I would have issues, especially when it came to the cross country. When I am flying with a private pilot student I make a dual cross country to a class D airport. I then send the student on their solo cross countries, normally 2 flights. For the solo cross countries I send them to at least one class D or C airport on each flight, with instructions to make sure they get their 3 take offs and landings. It will be the first time for them flying into these towered airports.

If they now choose to go sport pilot, they are now a student pilot seeking a sport pilot certificate. The solo flights into those class D or C airports didn't have the required training or endorsements as spelled out in 61.94. Without the training or endorsements did those flights now become a violation of the FAR's for the student? What about the instructor?

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:24 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:EXAMPLE:

I think I'll take flying lessons (no medical). I get 8 to 10 hours in a C150 and am ready to solo (no medical). My CFI tells me I need a 3rd class FAA medical to solo. I'm not sure I want to do that and haven't decided if I want a Private or Sport, so I find another FBO (or the same FBO) with an LSA (no medical). I get 5 hours or so and my CFI says I'm ready to solo (no medical). I solo the LSA (no medical). I'm now ready to work on cross-country (no medical). I tell my CFI that I'm not sure if I want a Sport or Private so let's make sure the cross-country flights meet both Sport and Private requirements (no medical). I complete my cross-country requirements for Sport and Private (no medical). I also did 3 hours of instrument training before my solo cross-country (no medical).

So, about now, I need to take a written and get my 2 or 3 hours of dual in preparation for the flight test. I think I'll go get a 3rd class medical and my night flight training and go for Private. OR, I think I'll forgo the medical and go for Sport.

I see no violation of FAR's.

EDIT: Just can't fly about 10,000 feet because NO MEDICAL.


As an instructor I would have issues, especially when it came to the cross country. When I am flying with a private pilot student I make a dual cross country to a class D airport. I then send the student on their solo cross countries, normally 2 flights. For the solo cross countries I send them to at least one class D or C airport on each flight, with instructions to make sure they get their 3 take offs and landings. It will be the first time for them flying into these towered airports.

If they now choose to go sport pilot, they are now a student pilot seeking a sport pilot certificate. The solo flights into those class D or C airports didn't have the required training or endorsements as spelled out in 61.94. Without the training or endorsements did those flights now become a violation of the FAR's for the student? What about the instructor?

Well, don't do that or do the class B, C, D endorsement first. That endorsement doesn't mean they still can't decide to go for Private.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:38 pm

TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
drseti wrote:You're getting into the weeds here, Tom.
Unless solo, there are no "student pilot privileges" to exercise. Anyone who has either the TSA citizenship endorsement or has met the Alien Flight Student Program background check requirements can receive dual instruction in anything, with or without a medical or driver's license. Only the aircraft limitations dictate what can and can't be done in dual instruction. "Privileges" only apply for solo flight. At that point, yes, in an airplane the drivers license medical limits the student to the SP restrictions.


Weeds, I don't think so.
I have only been speaking about solo flight. Of course no medical is required for the student to receive flight instruction.

An LSA is just an airplane, just like any other airplane. The fact that it is a LSA doesn't automatically change regulations or pilot privileges. The only time a LSA has any significance over any other airplane is when limitations on the pilot are changed limiting them to only being able to fly a LSA. It is this pilot limitation that determines whether a medical is required.

A student pilot is not required to fly a LSA. They can choose to fly a LSA, but that doesn't automatically change the medical requirements. The medical requirements change when they choose to follow the sport pilot limitations, one of which is the requirement that they must only fly a LSA. They must also follow all the other sport pilot limitations.

Well, actually it does. Most LSA are not IFR certified so an Instrument rated pilot cannot fly IFR in an LSA even though he is licensed and current to fly IFR. That is an aircraft specific restriction. Some LSA are not certified for night flight. Some non-LSA are not certified for instrument and/or night flight. So, the aircraft does, at times, automatically change regulations or pilot privileges.

Point being, it is the totality of the pilot's certification, currency, and medical status as well as the aircraft certification and currency, etc. that establishes what can and cannot be done for the flight in question.


It is true that most LSA are not IFR certified. The reason an instrument rated pilot can not fly it IFR is not because it is a LSA, it is because it is not IFR certified.

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:40 pm

Yes, that's what I said.
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TimTaylor
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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:43 pm

TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
drseti wrote:You're getting into the weeds here, Tom.
Unless solo, there are no "student pilot privileges" to exercise. Anyone who has either the TSA citizenship endorsement or has met the Alien Flight Student Program background check requirements can receive dual instruction in anything, with or without a medical or driver's license. Only the aircraft limitations dictate what can and can't be done in dual instruction. "Privileges" only apply for solo flight. At that point, yes, in an airplane the drivers license medical limits the student to the SP restrictions.


Weeds, I don't think so.
I have only been speaking about solo flight. Of course no medical is required for the student to receive flight instruction.

An LSA is just an airplane, just like any other airplane. The fact that it is a LSA doesn't automatically change regulations or pilot privileges. The only time a LSA has any significance over any other airplane is when limitations on the pilot are changed limiting them to only being able to fly a LSA. It is this pilot limitation that determines whether a medical is required.

A student pilot is not required to fly a LSA. They can choose to fly a LSA, but that doesn't automatically change the medical requirements. The medical requirements change when they choose to follow the sport pilot limitations, one of which is the requirement that they must only fly a LSA. They must also follow all the other sport pilot limitations.

Well, actually it does. Most LSA are not IFR certified so an Instrument rated pilot cannot fly IFR in an LSA even though he is licensed and current to fly IFR. That is an aircraft specific restriction. Some LSA are not certified for night flight. Some non-LSA are not certified for instrument and/or night flight. So, the aircraft does, at times, automatically change regulations or pilot privileges.

Point being, it is the totality of the pilot's certification, currency, and medical status as well as the aircraft certification and currency, etc. that establishes what can and cannot be done for the flight in question.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:47 pm

TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:EXAMPLE:

I think I'll take flying lessons (no medical). I get 8 to 10 hours in a C150 and am ready to solo (no medical). My CFI tells me I need a 3rd class FAA medical to solo. I'm not sure I want to do that and haven't decided if I want a Private or Sport, so I find another FBO (or the same FBO) with an LSA (no medical). I get 5 hours or so and my CFI says I'm ready to solo (no medical). I solo the LSA (no medical). I'm now ready to work on cross-country (no medical). I tell my CFI that I'm not sure if I want a Sport or Private so let's make sure the cross-country flights meet both Sport and Private requirements (no medical). I complete my cross-country requirements for Sport and Private (no medical). I also did 3 hours of instrument training before my solo cross-country (no medical).

So, about now, I need to take a written and get my 2 or 3 hours of dual in preparation for the flight test. I think I'll go get a 3rd class medical and my night flight training and go for Private. OR, I think I'll forgo the medical and go for Sport.

I see no violation of FAR's.

EDIT: Just can't fly about 10,000 feet because NO MEDICAL.


As an instructor I would have issues, especially when it came to the cross country. When I am flying with a private pilot student I make a dual cross country to a class D airport. I then send the student on their solo cross countries, normally 2 flights. For the solo cross countries I send them to at least one class D or C airport on each flight, with instructions to make sure they get their 3 take offs and landings. It will be the first time for them flying into these towered airports.

If they now choose to go sport pilot, they are now a student pilot seeking a sport pilot certificate. The solo flights into those class D or C airports didn't have the required training or endorsements as spelled out in 61.94. Without the training or endorsements did those flights now become a violation of the FAR's for the student? What about the instructor?

Well, don't do that or do the class B, C, D endorsement first. That endorsement doesn't mean they still can't decide to go for Private.


For me to do the added training to make those private pilot cross countries eligible for sport pilot will add a minimum of 3 hours additional flight training and at least $500 to the cost of their training.

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Re: Can my sport pilot student use his private pilot student certificate?

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:50 pm

Tom, we're not talking about what is practical, we're talking about what the FAR's allow and what the FAR's prohibit.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument


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