Anyone interested in starting a big school?
Moderator: drseti
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CharlieTango
- Posts: 1000
- Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
- Location: Mammoth Lakes, California
Re: LSA Flight School
leagle wrote:Discussions like this one always give me hope! You've heard me whine about this before, but that's what blogs are for, right?
Cook County (Chicago) has a population of about 5.5 million - much more if you consider the immediate collar counties. Flight schools - over a dozen. LSA flight schools - NONE. The closest one - indeed, the only one in Illinois - is about 65 miles from downtown Chicago, a prohibitive commute in metro traffic.
So I'm sitting here with 29 GA hours, a LSA student pilot certificate and a high passing grade on the LSA written and no place to fly, wondering if any of these GA schools are going to bite the bullet and start teaching light sport. Oh, I know all the reasons - expensive new planes, insurance, ignorance of the light sport rules, etc., but I gotta think that there are enough prospective students like me in that 5.5 million people to justify one of these biggger schools ( some have 10-20 planes!) trading one in on a used Sportstar or Thorpe T211.
Anyway, it's nice to know that folks like you are out there trying to figure out ways to make this thing happen. Thanks!
If you already have 29 hours in GA airplane, and passed the written test, then you are very close to being done. My suggestion:
Get yourself two one-way tickets from Southwest airlines from Midway to LAX and back in Feb. Plan to stay for 1 week vacation. It's the off season 65-70F on the beach (cold I know), so a place to stay should be fairly cheap. The flight school at Torrance has a Sport Cruiser and three instructors rated to train in it.
You should easily be able to do your solo and take the oral / practical test in less than a week. Especially if you are open to flying in the weekday mornings when the wind is usually dead calm.
Then you can worry about where to fly when you get back to Chicago.
________
Performance Vehicles
Last edited by SP_Laser on Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[you can't rationally explain why light sport is popular in some places and non-existant in others. just a matter of chance i think and over time the space between the hot spots will fill in.]
I think the reason it is more populer in some areas as opposed to others is largely due to whether anyone has taken the leap of faith to start a school. Prior to us starting CSP, we did not hear about a lot of demand. Once we openned the doors, we were shocked at the demand. People started coming out of the wood work. The biggest shock was the number of cooled calls at the airport that heard about getting the private v. sport pilot certificate and decided that SP was a much better ticket for their situation.
The old saying "If you build it, they will come" is very true in this industry.[/quote]
I think the reason it is more populer in some areas as opposed to others is largely due to whether anyone has taken the leap of faith to start a school. Prior to us starting CSP, we did not hear about a lot of demand. Once we openned the doors, we were shocked at the demand. People started coming out of the wood work. The biggest shock was the number of cooled calls at the airport that heard about getting the private v. sport pilot certificate and decided that SP was a much better ticket for their situation.
The old saying "If you build it, they will come" is very true in this industry.[/quote]
Flight School "Close" to Chi
There is a Flight Design dealer/flight school in southern WI just north of IL 173 between US 12 and the Tri-state.
SP_laser and Kelly Z: Thanks for your input.
Can't find the flight school in Torrance through the usual searches. Do you know the name of the school, or FBO or airport?
Also, Kelly Z, I think you're referring to Lake Country LSA in Twin Lakes. Their web site lists them a a CT dealer but not a flight school - maybe they'll teach you if you buy one.
Thanks to everyone for your thoughts!
Can't find the flight school in Torrance through the usual searches. Do you know the name of the school, or FBO or airport?
Also, Kelly Z, I think you're referring to Lake Country LSA in Twin Lakes. Their web site lists them a a CT dealer but not a flight school - maybe they'll teach you if you buy one.
Thanks to everyone for your thoughts!
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CharlieTango
- Posts: 1000
- Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
- Location: Mammoth Lakes, California
flight design dealers have access to qualified instructers so they can give training to their customers.
most customer training is done in the customer's aircraft but the dealer has to do demo rides and the instructors sometimes have their own ct's.
some dealerships might have a ct on lease back.
you would be doing the instructor a favor buy buying some training as long as they have a ct to do it in.
most customer training is done in the customer's aircraft but the dealer has to do demo rides and the instructors sometimes have their own ct's.
some dealerships might have a ct on lease back.
you would be doing the instructor a favor buy buying some training as long as they have a ct to do it in.
www (d)sportpilotexaminer(d) comleagle wrote:SP_laser and Kelly Z: Thanks for your input.
Can't find the flight school in Torrance through the usual searches. Do you know the name of the school, or FBO or airport?
Also, Kelly Z, I think you're referring to Lake Country LSA in Twin Lakes. Their web site lists them a a CT dealer but not a flight school - maybe they'll teach you if you buy one.
Thanks to everyone for your thoughts!
zamperni airfield KTOA
________
sc2 replay
Last edited by SP_Laser on Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sport Pilot Training at Westosha
I got an e-mail from Dana Holladay at Westosha (i.e., Lake Country LSA) claiming that they offer Sport Pilot training. The e-mail address listed on the Flight Design Dealer Web page is: [email protected]
Lake Country LSA
Thanks Kelly - I'll contact her and see what's up.
Here is an idea.
There are lots of airports around the country with NOTHING going on. The county gov is looking for something to happen at the local airport.
My approach would be pretty simple.
Interview and hire candidates for flight instructors.
Place them at an airport needing a flight school / warm body operator.
Instructor operates a flight school consisting of a Metal spar Cub and 70's 172.
He/she keeps the full charged instructor rate. Plus any ground instruction. How busy they are depends how much they work for it.
I keep the airplane rental but give instructor a per hour fee for the rental scheduling, fueling, looking after the airplane.
The airport keeps hangar rents, tie down rents, fuel sales.
They provide me with a small office or desk space and hangar space for two airplanes.
I pay their full price for fuel.
The instructor is resposible for finding their own students and scheduling them. The instructor is paid directly by the student and invoices me as a vendor. They are not an employee but independent.
They are also responsible for keeping the airplanes clean.
All students need renters insurance. Instructor keeps their own rental policy.
Instruction needs to be available evenings and weekends.
I keep enough airplanes when one needs service I can fly there in the to do the annual or just switch airplanes with another for engine changes. heavy maintenance, repairs, etc.
Rental rate varies on local prices of fuel, taxes
Yearly hours needed depends on location and what type of airplane the local market wants.
The airport needs to have self serve fuel available.
This could be dropped into almost any airport around the country and work fine. Increases use at the airport and provides new blood to for activity.
Quiet airplanes won't disturb the neighbors.
Both can run on auto gas if available.
I can then offer Sport Pilot, Private pilot, tailwheel, spin endorsements for instructors, and instrument. If not busy the instructor can give local scenic 25 nm radius rides in the 172. You can even tandem skydive from the 172. Anything to keep them making money and busy.
This can be setup for under $125,000.
There are lots of airports around the country with NOTHING going on. The county gov is looking for something to happen at the local airport.
My approach would be pretty simple.
Interview and hire candidates for flight instructors.
Place them at an airport needing a flight school / warm body operator.
Instructor operates a flight school consisting of a Metal spar Cub and 70's 172.
He/she keeps the full charged instructor rate. Plus any ground instruction. How busy they are depends how much they work for it.
I keep the airplane rental but give instructor a per hour fee for the rental scheduling, fueling, looking after the airplane.
The airport keeps hangar rents, tie down rents, fuel sales.
They provide me with a small office or desk space and hangar space for two airplanes.
I pay their full price for fuel.
The instructor is resposible for finding their own students and scheduling them. The instructor is paid directly by the student and invoices me as a vendor. They are not an employee but independent.
They are also responsible for keeping the airplanes clean.
All students need renters insurance. Instructor keeps their own rental policy.
Instruction needs to be available evenings and weekends.
I keep enough airplanes when one needs service I can fly there in the to do the annual or just switch airplanes with another for engine changes. heavy maintenance, repairs, etc.
Rental rate varies on local prices of fuel, taxes
Yearly hours needed depends on location and what type of airplane the local market wants.
The airport needs to have self serve fuel available.
This could be dropped into almost any airport around the country and work fine. Increases use at the airport and provides new blood to for activity.
Quiet airplanes won't disturb the neighbors.
Both can run on auto gas if available.
I can then offer Sport Pilot, Private pilot, tailwheel, spin endorsements for instructors, and instrument. If not busy the instructor can give local scenic 25 nm radius rides in the 172. You can even tandem skydive from the 172. Anything to keep them making money and busy.
This can be setup for under $125,000.
We just need to be practical about this rental thing. Here are some other rules that have always worked for us over the last 60 years of having a flight school.
Bring the airplanes to the people. They don't need new airplanes. But a simple rule to follow is look for nice under 3000 hour airframes with engines rebuilt within the last 15 years by a professional shop. Try to find one around 500 hours since major. Engine is broken in and the inital hit has been taken for the overhaul cost.
Pay your mechanic for a good prebuy. This will be almost an annual. Most will turn it into an annual if the prebuy is ok. Then you have 100 hours to fly.
Beware of engines that the core was overhauled but no accessories (mags, carb, alternator) were overhauled. Or mechanic overhauls.
Paint and interior can be fixed fairly cheaply but corrosion cannot. Minor damage history if properly repaired is ok.
Resell the airplanes before reaching 7000 hours try to time the sale for when the engine is less than 1000 hours since major overhaul.
Find a good overhauler who is not too big and can turn your engines quickly.
Always buy new cylinders and cams for major overhaul. Don't get factory exchange engines.
Prop overhaul at engine overhaul and a dynamic balance after the engine breakin is a good idea.
Paint airplanes with nice looking factory style schemes. no "Bobs pilot training" under each wing. Sharks teeth or Purple with pink dots.
detail airplanes often. Cotton terry towels and Meguires quickwax spray works great. Pledge with cotton towels works for window cleaning.
Remove wheel pants. Reinstall them when you sell the airplane.
check tire pressures once a week. Walk around with a can of LPS-2 and oil everything that moves. Well loved airplanes have oil coming off the hinges.
Use oil pressure hobbs meters. I hate ones that come on with only the master. Forces students to rush through clearance and checking ATIS.
meter should only run when engine is running. Use tach time for your maintenance and engine TBO. Can add up to 20%.
Get a customer account with Aircraft Spruce. Buy from there and get discounts off list price. Find places such as Desser tire with free shipping for batteries. Supply your mechanic with what parts you know you will need when taking the airplane in for inspection. Ask an IA about owner assist annuals. Monitor AD's yourself. Don't miss them if recurring.
Use the simplest panel mounted avionics you can find. No cigar lighter plugs and wires everywhere. I have used KX-170 B's for a long time. KX-155 is my current choice and I'll always pick an airplane to buy with these over one with other radios.
Buy David Clark non noise canceling headsets for trainers. Just the simple boom mike version. Rugged and repairable. It will get dropped, slammed in doors, left in the sun, etc.
The Garmin 296 and up are very good and an avionics shop can hard wire one in cheaply. Best most user friendly and battery backup.
Do what is needed to get your A/P rating. It will allow you much more freedom to fix the fleet and maintain them.
Standardize the fleet for equipment and models. Then parts are easier to stock and everyone can switch from one airplane to another without problems.
Where ever possible eliminate middle men. No Leasebacks, no partners, no brokers. You, your airplanes, Instructors as contractors and deal directly with the airport manager or board. You represent yourself to the bank. If you can't get the airplane you want find a cheaper airplane.
Then you have control and can offer rentals at lower prices while making a profit.
Starting a flight school from scratch is a tough road. The banks are skeptical. Best is estimate the costs based on average student times, not FAA minimums. Then print some example cost flyers and go visit every business owner in your area. These are the easiest targets to find and more than likely on local bank boards. If you are the topic of bank meetings between these people then your lenders will listen.
Local business owners and workers can only fly after hours or on weekends. That is when a flight school needs to be open and running full speed. If you need a day off use monday morning or wait for a rainy day. Be flexible so they can fly when time allows. I've eaten many fast meals while watching a preflight inspection.
Don't wear the pseudo airline uniforms or stripes. Dress like a normal human but not a slob.
Don't be late, Call if you can't make a time, Don't yell, use humor, no credit cards. Cash or check only. Only allow money on account. Not flying on account. Pay for gas in advance or pay each time.
We would all like G1000 equipped new Diamond or deluxe LSA but be realistic. By buying one of these you eliminate 2/3 of your prospective students due to cost.
And then fewer could afford to buy their own after getting a license. The 172 or Cherokee line are available in all price ranges and equipment.
Modern people are too large for the 150.
Same goes for LSA. Sadly there are no cheap (under 45,000) used SLSA tricycle gear airplanes which are built strong enough for training and have enough performance to be useful for cross country trips. (95 mph cruise) This will change very soon as some of the new expensive LSA designs reach 4 years old and the new prices fall. We are seeing more designs new in the $60,000 range.
As soon as someone designs a new LSA for true mass production things will really pickup.
Insurance for LSA and flight schools will be practical about when Cessna gets the 162 going. Not because it is a better airplane but because of their pull with the underwriters.
Just some ideas for beginning flight school operator. Sorry too long but I see schools come and go every year. They burn up startup money and disappear or just find another person to lease back an airplane for the next year.
Bring the airplanes to the people. They don't need new airplanes. But a simple rule to follow is look for nice under 3000 hour airframes with engines rebuilt within the last 15 years by a professional shop. Try to find one around 500 hours since major. Engine is broken in and the inital hit has been taken for the overhaul cost.
Pay your mechanic for a good prebuy. This will be almost an annual. Most will turn it into an annual if the prebuy is ok. Then you have 100 hours to fly.
Beware of engines that the core was overhauled but no accessories (mags, carb, alternator) were overhauled. Or mechanic overhauls.
Paint and interior can be fixed fairly cheaply but corrosion cannot. Minor damage history if properly repaired is ok.
Resell the airplanes before reaching 7000 hours try to time the sale for when the engine is less than 1000 hours since major overhaul.
Find a good overhauler who is not too big and can turn your engines quickly.
Always buy new cylinders and cams for major overhaul. Don't get factory exchange engines.
Prop overhaul at engine overhaul and a dynamic balance after the engine breakin is a good idea.
Paint airplanes with nice looking factory style schemes. no "Bobs pilot training" under each wing. Sharks teeth or Purple with pink dots.
detail airplanes often. Cotton terry towels and Meguires quickwax spray works great. Pledge with cotton towels works for window cleaning.
Remove wheel pants. Reinstall them when you sell the airplane.
check tire pressures once a week. Walk around with a can of LPS-2 and oil everything that moves. Well loved airplanes have oil coming off the hinges.
Use oil pressure hobbs meters. I hate ones that come on with only the master. Forces students to rush through clearance and checking ATIS.
meter should only run when engine is running. Use tach time for your maintenance and engine TBO. Can add up to 20%.
Get a customer account with Aircraft Spruce. Buy from there and get discounts off list price. Find places such as Desser tire with free shipping for batteries. Supply your mechanic with what parts you know you will need when taking the airplane in for inspection. Ask an IA about owner assist annuals. Monitor AD's yourself. Don't miss them if recurring.
Use the simplest panel mounted avionics you can find. No cigar lighter plugs and wires everywhere. I have used KX-170 B's for a long time. KX-155 is my current choice and I'll always pick an airplane to buy with these over one with other radios.
Buy David Clark non noise canceling headsets for trainers. Just the simple boom mike version. Rugged and repairable. It will get dropped, slammed in doors, left in the sun, etc.
The Garmin 296 and up are very good and an avionics shop can hard wire one in cheaply. Best most user friendly and battery backup.
Do what is needed to get your A/P rating. It will allow you much more freedom to fix the fleet and maintain them.
Standardize the fleet for equipment and models. Then parts are easier to stock and everyone can switch from one airplane to another without problems.
Where ever possible eliminate middle men. No Leasebacks, no partners, no brokers. You, your airplanes, Instructors as contractors and deal directly with the airport manager or board. You represent yourself to the bank. If you can't get the airplane you want find a cheaper airplane.
Then you have control and can offer rentals at lower prices while making a profit.
Starting a flight school from scratch is a tough road. The banks are skeptical. Best is estimate the costs based on average student times, not FAA minimums. Then print some example cost flyers and go visit every business owner in your area. These are the easiest targets to find and more than likely on local bank boards. If you are the topic of bank meetings between these people then your lenders will listen.
Local business owners and workers can only fly after hours or on weekends. That is when a flight school needs to be open and running full speed. If you need a day off use monday morning or wait for a rainy day. Be flexible so they can fly when time allows. I've eaten many fast meals while watching a preflight inspection.
Don't wear the pseudo airline uniforms or stripes. Dress like a normal human but not a slob.
Don't be late, Call if you can't make a time, Don't yell, use humor, no credit cards. Cash or check only. Only allow money on account. Not flying on account. Pay for gas in advance or pay each time.
We would all like G1000 equipped new Diamond or deluxe LSA but be realistic. By buying one of these you eliminate 2/3 of your prospective students due to cost.
And then fewer could afford to buy their own after getting a license. The 172 or Cherokee line are available in all price ranges and equipment.
Modern people are too large for the 150.
Same goes for LSA. Sadly there are no cheap (under 45,000) used SLSA tricycle gear airplanes which are built strong enough for training and have enough performance to be useful for cross country trips. (95 mph cruise) This will change very soon as some of the new expensive LSA designs reach 4 years old and the new prices fall. We are seeing more designs new in the $60,000 range.
As soon as someone designs a new LSA for true mass production things will really pickup.
Insurance for LSA and flight schools will be practical about when Cessna gets the 162 going. Not because it is a better airplane but because of their pull with the underwriters.
Just some ideas for beginning flight school operator. Sorry too long but I see schools come and go every year. They burn up startup money and disappear or just find another person to lease back an airplane for the next year.