Session question

Sport aviation is growing rapidly. But the new sport pilot / light-sport aircraft rules are still a mystery to many flight schools and instructors. To locate a flight school offering sport pilot training and/or light-sport aircraft rentals, click on the "Flight School And Rental Finder" tab above. This is a great place to share ideas on learning to fly, flight schools, costs and anything else related to training.

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sportflugzeug
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Session question

Postby sportflugzeug » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:09 pm

Spoke with my CFI today.

Is it customary for there to be a 1 hr of actual flight training followed by 1 1/2 hrs of ground school in one session?

TimTaylor
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Re: Session question

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:28 pm

No, it's however you and your instructor decide to do your training. When I learned to fly, years ago, I did all the ground school on my own and my CFI just did flight training with a few minutes of pre-flight and post flight. Some CFI's might do an hour of ground with an hour of flight, etc. It just depends. You need to discuss with your CFI. However, 1.5 hours of ground with 1.0 hours of flight would be OK if that's what you need and how he structures his/her training. There is no ground school required if you can learn it on your own, but the CFI will need to sign you off for the written as well as the flight test.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

sportflugzeug
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Re: Session question

Postby sportflugzeug » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:49 pm

I need to discuss the need for 1 1/2 hrs of ground. I do not need to be spoon fed as I am capable of reading and studying for myself.

Warmi
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Re: Session question

Postby Warmi » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:01 pm

My only ground lessons were related to times when we couldn’t go flying due to weather etc ... but that was only about 2-3 times , normally, we would go out for about 1 h flight followed by 15-30 minutes debriefing.

I was like you in that I preferred to learn on my own and thus for the written test, I pretty much did all my studying but I guess ultimately it is up to your instructor and his/her preferred style - you can always switch to another instructor.
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

TimTaylor
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Re: Session question

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:08 pm

sportflugzeug wrote:I need to discuss the need for 1 1/2 hrs of ground. I do not need to be spoon fed as I am capable of reading and studying for myself.
That was me also. I was in high school and a very good student. So, I was not interested in ground school. However, some CFI's have their own way of doing things and might not be as flexible as some other CFI's. Personally, I would not pay for something I did not want or need. That said, there are some advantages to "being spoon fed" the information and it would be worth it for some students.

Also, I personally think the CFI should tailor the training to fit the student, not force the student into a pre-determined training regiment. Others here will disagree. That's OK. Choice is good.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

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Half Fast
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Re: Session question

Postby Half Fast » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:01 pm

No, it’s not customary. Sounds like a rip-off unless there’s more to the story.
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Warmi
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Re: Session question

Postby Warmi » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:03 pm

Half Fast wrote:No, it’s not customary. Sounds like a rip-off unless there’s more to the story.


Not necessarily.. I think drSeti does something similar at his school ..
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

sportflugzeug
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Re: Session question

Postby sportflugzeug » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:12 am

I have completed the written (88%) and have obtained my student pilot certificate. I have quite accomplished studying skills, so I can read the material for myself. I will see how and what the CFI has to say first. Based on that conversation, then I will proceed with my next decision. I will not speculate until I speak with him.

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Jim Hardin
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Re: Session question

Postby Jim Hardin » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:59 am

sportflugzeug wrote:I have completed the written (88%) and have obtained my student pilot certificate. I have quite accomplished studying skills, so I can read the material for myself. I will see how and what the CFI has to say first. Based on that conversation, then I will proceed with my next decision. I will not speculate until I speak with him.


My first impression is that with your attitude you have little idea what is involved in becoming a pilot. But you have left out everything of importance to your question. You never said what the flight and ground lesson was about. You think you aced it, but did your instructor press on because he felt you really didn't understand the lessons? Had a student who got a quiz question right when almost everyone else gets it wrong. It wasn't a lucky guess but a logical approach he used to answer it. But when quizzed farther, his logic was completely wrong.

But I have seen the other side of the coin too! My favorite was a student who asked me if he should preflight and start the plane??? Seemed that was customary at his old school, then sit in the running plane until the instructor arrived!

I work with my customers. If someone tells me they know that subject, I either accept that they do, followed by a few well placed questions or I have them explain it to me. I actually like to get my students through with the minimum time but I have yet to see anyone who I would sign off in 20 hours!

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Half Fast
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Re: Session question

Postby Half Fast » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:19 am

Warmi wrote:
Half Fast wrote:No, it’s not customary. Sounds like a rip-off unless there’s more to the story.


Not necessarily.. I think drSeti does something similar at his school ..



Yes he does, but he uses a non-customary business approach of charging a flat tuition for the program, rather than by the hour.
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drseti
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Re: Session question

Postby drseti » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:42 am

Three points here. The first is the widely held misconception that FAA does not require the student to receive ground instruction. In fact, there are FARs (in part 61; I can't cite or quote them offhand, but will look them up later) that list the skill and subject areas in which the student must receive flight and ground instruction prior to solo, solo XC, and checkride. The CFI has to give logbook endorsements to this effect. There is no specific requirement as to hours, but if a DPE sees zero ground instruction logged, he or she is within rights to grill the applicant during the oral, or even reject him or her.

Second, some think the only purpose of ground instruction is to prepare the student for the written. Not so - those flight academies that require the student to pass the written before enrolling still give ground instruction as part of the lesson. That may involve preflight and post flight briefings, supervised simulator sessions, discussion groups with other students, or Q and A with an instructor - but they relate to flying skills, planning, and judgment, not just memorizing answers to multiple choice questions.

Third is the perception that by giving ground instruction, the CFI is somehow milking the student. Of course, there may be some out there for whom this is true, but be careful about generalizing. In my flight school, the plane is rented by the Hobbs hour, but the instructor rents by the course - at a flat rate. It's part of the tuition the student pays up front. No matter how long the lesson lasts. Some lessons (especially toward the end of training, in preparing for the checkride) may go on all day. If the CFI is a fulltime, salaried employee, he or she has no financial incentive to drag out the lesson. And the student has no financial incentive to short-change himself or herself.

In my nearly four decades of college teaching, I can't remember ever charging a student for coming in to talk during office hours. If it were in my power, I would have charged them for not doing so.
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sportflugzeug
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Re: Session question

Postby sportflugzeug » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:22 am

drseti,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. You definitely have explained the theory of ground school. If I understand it correctly, it’s not about if one can self-study and do well. There is much more information that is learned through the CFI than books.

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Jim Hardin
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Re: Session question

Postby Jim Hardin » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:19 am

sportflugzeug wrote:drseti,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. You definitely have explained the theory of ground school. If I understand it correctly, it’s not about if one can self-study and do well. There is much more information that is learned through the CFI than books.


Please explain what this lesson, flight & ground was about?

We are not going to criticize you and there is a lot of experience here along with a willingness to help out. We can pick apart FARs or go into nauseating detail on calculating % oF MAC :P

sportflugzeug
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Re: Session question

Postby sportflugzeug » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:48 pm

Spoke with CFI today. He says as a general rule he does 1 1/2 hrs of ground. He said all depends on the student. Says I have good studying habits so there won’t be a need for 1 1/2 hrs but will still do some ground after each flight.

TimTaylor
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Re: Session question

Postby TimTaylor » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:55 pm

Each and every flight should include pre-flght ground instruction and post-flight review and critique. This is part of learning to fly and yes, required by the FAR's. However, this is different than a ground school course you might take in preparation and training for the written test.

It is entirely up to the student and CFI if the student wants ground instruction pointed toward the written test or not. Some do, some don't. If the CFI insist on doing both, the student is free to go somewhere else for his training. One size DOES NOT fit all.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument


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