Tower Endorsement

Sport aviation is growing rapidly. But the new sport pilot / light-sport aircraft rules are still a mystery to many flight schools and instructors. To locate a flight school offering sport pilot training and/or light-sport aircraft rentals, click on the "Flight School And Rental Finder" tab above. This is a great place to share ideas on learning to fly, flight schools, costs and anything else related to training.

Moderator: drseti

User avatar
WDD
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:39 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Tower Endorsement

Postby WDD » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:05 pm

Things seem complicated.

They have no provision for a student pilot to get a student endorsement to fly a plane faster than 87kts. It appears they have two types of B, C, D endorsements - one for a student that is for a specific airport and good for only 90 days, and one for a licensed sport pilot good for any B, C, D and doesn't expire.


From the FAA website:
https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificat ... idance.pdf

Student Pilot- Seeking a Sport Pilot Certificate - Endorsements

10. Solo flight to, from, or at an airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace or on an airport having
an operational control tower: §§ 61.94(a) and 91.131(b)(1) (required each additional 90-day period)
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.94 (a) (1). I have
determined that he/she is proficient to conduct solo flight operations at (name of airport) located in Class B,
C, or D airspace or on an airport having an operational control tower. (List any applicable conditions or
limitations.) J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06



Sport Pilot Endorsements for

6. Class B, C, Or D Airspace, At An Airport Located In Class B, C, Or D Airspace, Or To, From,
Through, Or On An Airport Having An Operational Control Tower: §61.325
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.325. I have determined
he/she is proficient to conduct operations in Class (B, C, or D) airspace, at an airport located in Class (B, C,
or D) airspace, or to, from, through, or on an airport having an operational control tower.
J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06

7. Light-Sport Aircraft That Has A VH Greater Than 87 Knots CAS: § 61.327(b)
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.327 in a (make and
model aircraft). I have determined him/her proficient to act as PIC of a light-sport aircraft that has a VH
greater than 87 knots CAS.
J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 5633
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: Tower Endorsement

Postby drseti » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:25 pm

Don't forget that there is a companion to the Vh > 87 kts endorsement, allowing a student pilot or sport pilot to solo an aircraft with a Vh < 87 kts. One must have (at least) one or the other. Are we confused yet?
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

User avatar
WDD
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:39 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Tower Endorsement

Postby WDD » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:27 pm

And then, this from Paul Hamilton's web site:

http://sportpilottraining.sportaviation ... orsements/

Which looks a bit different. If I understand "or endorsements before checkride are applicable after checkride" language for Sport Pilot license owners, he might be saying you can get the permanent BCD airspace BEFORE the checkride????


Summary of “student pilot” solo logbook endorsements
(add any additional limitations as required for solo flights):

_____ Instructor endorses back of Student Pilot Certificate make/model § 61.87(n) (1).

Prior to first local supervised solo flight, place in logbook:

Speed endorsement required per § 61.89 (c) (5)(not required for WSC trikes and PPC under the 87 knots Vh)
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.327 in a (make and model aircraft). I have determined him/her proficient to act as PIC of a light-sport aircraft that has a VH (greater or less) than 87 knots CAS. J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06

If towered airspace flights is required:
Solo flight in Class B, C, and D airspace, § 61.94(a) :
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.94 (a). I have determined he/she is proficient to conduct solo flights in (name of Class B, C, or D) airspace. (List any applicable conditions or limitations.)
J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06

Additional Sport Pilot Endorsements after checkride (or endorsements before checkride are applicable after checkride)

Class B, C, Or D Airspace, At An Airport Located In Class B, C, Or D Airspace, Or To, From, Through, Or On An Airport Having An Operational Control Tower: § 61.325 (if applicable):

I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.325. I have determined he/she is proficient to conduct operations in Class B, C, or D* airspace, at an airport located in Class B, C, or D* airspace, or to, from, through, or on an airport having an operational control tower.
J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06

User avatar
WDD
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:39 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Tower Endorsement

Postby WDD » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:29 pm

drseti wrote:Don't forget that there is a companion to the Vh > 87 kts endorsement, allowing a student pilot or sport pilot to solo an aircraft with a Vh < 87 kts. One must have (at least) one or the other. Are we confused yet?



Not a problem. Just fly something that ONLY goes 87 kts. Not anything faster or slower...... :D

3Dreaming
Posts: 2246
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:13 pm
Location: noble, IL USA

Re: Tower Endorsement

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:34 pm

WDD wrote:Things seem complicated.

They have no provision for a student pilot to get a student endorsement to fly a plane faster than 87kts. It appears they have two types of B, C, D endorsements - one for a student that is for a specific airport and good for only 90 days, and one for a licensed sport pilot good for any B, C, D and doesn't expire.


61.89 (c), (5) is the requirement for having the speed endorsement. 61.327 (a) and (b) covers the endorsement. The instructor makes the endorsement for which ever speed of aircraft you are flying.

You are correct on the airspace endorsement. The same training for both, only the student pilot training must be in the specific airspace which they will be flying. Personally I see no reason that an instructor couldn't sign off for both when the instruction is given.

Warmi
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:35 pm
Location: Frankfort, IL

Re: Tower Endorsement

Postby Warmi » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:40 pm

Interesting. I got my D class endorsement before my solo since I was training at KARR ( d class) but I never got the 87+ knots one despite flying Remos planes.
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

User avatar
WDD
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:39 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Tower Endorsement

Postby WDD » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:18 pm

Warmi wrote:Interesting. I got my D class endorsement before my solo since I was training at KARR ( d class) but I never got the 87+ knots one despite flying Remos planes.


So does that mean you don't currently have an endorsement to go faster than 87 kts?

Warmi
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:35 pm
Location: Frankfort, IL

Re: Tower Endorsement

Postby Warmi » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:27 pm

Can’t find one. I see B,C,D or on an airport having an operational tower and few others but not the 87 knots one.
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 5633
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: Tower Endorsement

Postby drseti » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:49 pm

WDD wrote:So does that mean you don't currently have an endorsement to go faster than 87 kts?


A common misconception. The endorsement has nothing whatever to do with the speed you fly. It refers to the capability of the aircraft you fly.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

Warmi
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:35 pm
Location: Frankfort, IL

Re: Tower Endorsement

Postby Warmi » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:54 pm

I got the endorsement for flying the sting ( as in the airplane model ) but it doesn’t reference explicitly 87 or frankly any other speed ....
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 5633
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: Tower Endorsement

Postby drseti » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:11 pm

See FAR 61.327. Point it out to your CFI - many haven't read it!
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

Warmi
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:35 pm
Location: Frankfort, IL

Re: Tower Endorsement

Postby Warmi » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:15 pm

I am curious as to the background behind having this endorsement on the books in the first place... is this related to ultralights ?
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

User avatar
drseti
Posts: 5633
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: Tower Endorsement

Postby drseti » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:34 pm

Warmi wrote: is this related to ultralights ?


That was it's origin. In 2004 -2005, many fat ultralights were converted to ELSA (that window of opportunity has closed), and many Part 103 pilots then got SP ratings. The planes they had been flying were low-speed, high-drag, but soon those newly minted Sport Pilots stepped up to high-speed, low-drag LSAs, which they could legally do with no additional training. But, the flying characteristics of the two differ widely, and upgrading ultralight pilots began getting into trouble. So, FAA added the endorsements to ensure that some upgrade training be provided.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

3Dreaming
Posts: 2246
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:13 pm
Location: noble, IL USA

Re: Tower Endorsement

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:45 pm

Warmi wrote:Can’t find one. I see B,C,D or on an airport having an operational tower and few others but not the 87 knots one.


Get that endorsement now. Legally speaking all of your solo flight without the endorsement was in violation of the regulations. There have been people sent home from their checkrides because of not having the endorsement.

Warmi
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:35 pm
Location: Frankfort, IL

Re: Tower Endorsement

Postby Warmi » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:42 pm

Will do. I think people just don’t know about it cause nobody ever mentioned it to me except on this site.
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois


Return to “Training”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests