Looking for a CFI - not that easy

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Warmi
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Re: Looking for a CFI - not that easy

Postby Warmi » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:58 pm

TimTaylor wrote:
Warmi wrote:This discussion reminds of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_man ... f_a_pin%3F

There are 300 recreational pilots across the total pool of 300 000 000 potential applicants - a reasonable solution would be to ditch the certification even only to save taxpayers money in just maintaining all these empty and useless rules and regulations nobody will ever use but that I guess would be a bit too sane ?

Not useless to the people who have the rating, and what's to maintain? Most of your post remind me of this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics


Your very link states that far right politics are known , among other things, for authoritarian tendencies ..nazism etc.
All my posts clearly and unequivocally advocate more libertarian and "live and let live" point of view - less government and fewer useless rules.

If your intention is to insult me , ate last make an effort to hit closer to home ... ( hint.... 'a damn anarchist' would be closer to home )
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

TimTaylor
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Re: Looking for a CFI - not that easy

Postby TimTaylor » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:03 pm

Half Fast wrote:
Warmi wrote:This discussion reminds of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_man ... f_a_pin%3F

There are 300 recreational pilots across the total pool of 300 000 000 potential applicants - a reasonable solution would be to ditch the certification even only to save taxpayers money in just maintaining all these empty and useless rules and regulations nobody will ever use but that I guess would be a bit too sane ?



If ditching Rec included increasing the LSA weight limit, so as to include planes available to a Rec pilot, I'd be all for it. That way those 300 could keep flying whatever they're flying, and we SPs would have a good fleet of used aircraft available to us.

It would be great if they would combine Sport Pilot, Recreational Pilot, and Private Pilot into one certificate and combine driver's license medical and Basic Med and everyone below Commercial could be a Private flying with Basic Med.

3Dreaming
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Re: Looking for a CFI - not that easy

Postby 3Dreaming » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:59 pm

TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:It would if the flights met the minimum distances, etc. spelled out in the Recreation Pilot requirements. You would have to read the requirements for Recreation Pilot and compare the requirements to your logged flights to see.


Recreational pilot doesn't have any cross country requirements. That is why you have to do extra cross country training for a recreational pilot to be able to exercise sport pilot privileges without a medical.

Why would a Recreation PIlot want to exercise Sport PIlot priviledges? If he is a Recreational Pilot with a medical, he would get the cross-country training and fly cross country as a Recreational Pilot so he can fly larger aircraft.


They might be like you, out of the 10 year window and not willing to risk getting a third class medical.

TimTaylor
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Re: Looking for a CFI - not that easy

Postby TimTaylor » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:11 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
Recreational pilot doesn't have any cross country requirements. That is why you have to do extra cross country training for a recreational pilot to be able to exercise sport pilot privileges without a medical.

Why would a Recreation PIlot want to exercise Sport PIlot priviledges? If he is a Recreational Pilot with a medical, he would get the cross-country training and fly cross country as a Recreational Pilot so he can fly larger aircraft.


They might be like you, out of the 10 year window and not willing to risk getting a third class medical.

Yes, but we were talking about upgrading from Sport Pilot to Recreation Pilot which means he would have a 3rd class medical or higher.

3Dreaming
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Re: Looking for a CFI - not that easy

Postby 3Dreaming » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:43 pm

TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Why would a Recreation PIlot want to exercise Sport PIlot priviledges? If he is a Recreational Pilot with a medical, he would get the cross-country training and fly cross country as a Recreational Pilot so he can fly larger aircraft.


They might be like you, out of the 10 year window and not willing to risk getting a third class medical.

Yes, but we were talking about upgrading from Sport Pilot to Recreation Pilot which means he would have a 3rd class medical or higher.


Your right we were. I think we got off track when you said he would need to meet the recreational pilot cross country requirements, and I pointed out that recreational pilot doesn't have any cross country requirements. The cross country training to remove the restriction is in the private pilot requirements. The reason they added a way to remove the restriction is so a recreational pilot could exercise sport pilot privileges.

TimTaylor
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Re: Looking for a CFI - not that easy

Postby TimTaylor » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:50 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
They might be like you, out of the 10 year window and not willing to risk getting a third class medical.

Yes, but we were talking about upgrading from Sport Pilot to Recreation Pilot which means he would have a 3rd class medical or higher.


Your right we were. I think we got off track when you said he would need to meet the recreational pilot cross country requirements, and I pointed out that recreational pilot doesn't have any cross country requirements. The cross country training to remove the restriction is in the private pilot requirements. The reason they added a way to remove the restriction is so a recreational pilot could exercise sport pilot privileges.

We didn't get off track. No. Sport Pilot privileges do not allow flight in standard category aircraft. They allow the Recreational Pilot to fly cross country by training for cross country and getting endorsed for cross country. It has nothing to do with Sport Pilot or Private Pilot. FAR 61.101 (c)

3Dreaming
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Re: Looking for a CFI - not that easy

Postby 3Dreaming » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:24 pm

TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Yes, but we were talking about upgrading from Sport Pilot to Recreation Pilot which means he would have a 3rd class medical or higher.


Your right we were. I think we got off track when you said he would need to meet the recreational pilot cross country requirements, and I pointed out that recreational pilot doesn't have any cross country requirements. The cross country training to remove the restriction is in the private pilot requirements. The reason they added a way to remove the restriction is so a recreational pilot could exercise sport pilot privileges.
We didn't get off track. No. Sport Pilot privileges do not allow flight in standard category aircraft. They allow the Recreational Pilot to fly cross country by training for cross country. It has nothing to do with Sport Pilot. FAR 61.101 (c)


First off a sport pilot can certainly fly standard category aircraft, as long as it is a LSA.

I understand what you are saying that 61,101 (c) has nothing to do with sport pilot, but that is not quite right. 61.101 (c) was added because of sport pilot. 61.303 requires a recreational pilot have the 61.101 (c) endorsement to exercise sport pilot privileges. The plus was that a recreational pilot who is exercising recreational privileges could also have the cross country restriction removed.

The way I read the regulations a sport pilot who would move up to recreational pilot would lose thier cross country privileges, until the meet the requirements of 61.101 (c).

TimTaylor
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Re: Looking for a CFI - not that easy

Postby TimTaylor » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:35 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
Your right we were. I think we got off track when you said he would need to meet the recreational pilot cross country requirements, and I pointed out that recreational pilot doesn't have any cross country requirements. The cross country training to remove the restriction is in the private pilot requirements. The reason they added a way to remove the restriction is so a recreational pilot could exercise sport pilot privileges.
We didn't get off track. No. Sport Pilot privileges do not allow flight in standard category aircraft. They allow the Recreational Pilot to fly cross country by training for cross country. It has nothing to do with Sport Pilot. FAR 61.101 (c)


First off a sport pilot can certainly fly standard category aircraft, as long as it is a LSA.

I understand what you are saying that 61,101 (c) has nothing to do with sport pilot, but that is not quite right. 61.101 (c) was added because of sport pilot. 61.303 requires a recreational pilot have the 61.101 (c) endorsement to exercise sport pilot privileges. The plus was that a recreational pilot who is exercising recreational privileges could also have the cross country restriction removed.

The way I read the regulations a sport pilot who would move up to recreational pilot would lose thier cross country privileges, until the meet the requirements of 61.101 (c).

I do see that the Recreational Pilot cross-country training is from Part E, which is Private Pilot.

No, a Sport Pilot would not lose cross-country privileges. That would make NO sense. He is still a Sport Pilot while training for Rec Pilot. He could fly cross-country in an LSA. He could also fly cross-country is a standard certificated aircraft under supervision of his CFI as any other student pilot could as long as he had a 3rd class medical. Once he gets the Rec Pilot rating, he could exercise Sport Pilot privileges in LSA until he gets the required Rec Pilot endorsement for cross country flight. At that point he could fly cross country in standard certificated aircraft as a Rec Pilot with cross country endorsement under Rec Pilot privileges. He IS NOT exercising Sport Pilot privileges. It has nothing to do with Sport Pilot. He is a Rec Pilot with cross-country endorsement and a medical certificate. 61.303 is about LSA.

3Dreaming
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Re: Looking for a CFI - not that easy

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:17 am

TimTaylor wrote:I do see that the Recreational Pilot cross-country training is from Part E, which is Private Pilot.

No, a Sport Pilot would not lose cross-country privileges. That would make NO sense. He is still a Sport Pilot while training for Rec Pilot. He could fly cross-country in an LSA. He could also fly cross-country is a standard certificated aircraft under supervision of his CFI as any other student pilot could as long as he had a 3rd class medical. Once he gets the Rec Pilot rating, he could exercise Sport Pilot privileges in LSA until he gets the required Rec Pilot endorsement for cross country flight. At that point he could fly cross country in standard certificated aircraft as a Rec Pilot with cross country endorsement under Rec Pilot privileges.


First I was wrong. The 61.101 (c) was added in 1997 before sport pilot, but the endorsement is required under 61.303 if a recreational pilot wants to exercise sport pilot privileges without a medical.

Standard certified aircraft as you are calling them have nothing to do with exercising pilot privileges of any type. A sport pilot can fly any LSA regardless of how it is certified. A recreational pilot can fly any airplane with no more than 4 seats and 180 HP or less regardless of how it is certified. Including LSA.

A sport pilot can exercise cross country sport pilot privileges right up until he becomes a recreational pilot. Once he is a Recreational pilot he would need the 61.101 ( c ) endorsement to regain cross country privileges. 61.303 would preclude him from exercising sport pilot privileges without getting the endorsement required by 61.101 ( c ).

TimTaylor
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Re: Looking for a CFI - not that easy

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:33 am

Wrong. That is not what 61.303 (1) (ii) says. We are not talking about "without a medical." We're talking about a Sport Pilot with a medical who is upgrading to Rec Pilot which requires a medical.

TimTaylor
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Re: Looking for a CFI - not that easy

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:03 am

Just to beat this horse one more time, an example of what I'm saying:

A guy without a medical gets a Sport Pilot certificate trained by a subpart K CFIS. He gets the Sport Pilot endorsements for >87 knots and class B, C, and D airspace and flies a year logging a lot of cross country. Now, he decides he wants to fly a Cherokee 180, so he gets a 3rd class medical and a Recreational Pilot certificate using a subpart H CFI. He knows he will need to get a Recreational Pilot cross country endorsement before he can fly the Cherokee cross country. In the mean time, however, he can still fly the LSA cross country using Sport Pilot privileges and limitations. To lose the ability to do that just because he upgraded to Recreation Pilot would make no sense.
Last edited by TimTaylor on Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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WDD
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Re: Looking for a CFI - not that easy

Postby WDD » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:10 am

TimTaylor wrote:Anyway, find a flight school with good instructor, relax, and go have fun learning to fly and getting your certificate. Don't over-think this.


Yes, but that's the problem. There isn't a good flight school around here, so if this is going to happen I have to go the extra mile and set this up myself, with all the good advice from you folks.

TimTaylor
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Re: Looking for a CFI - not that easy

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:15 am

WDD wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Anyway, find a flight school with good instructor, relax, and go have fun learning to fly and getting your certificate. Don't over-think this.


Yes, but that's the problem. There isn't a good flight school around here, so if this is going to happen I have to go the extra mile and set this up myself, with all the good advice from you folks.

That's why I have given you my advice on who to go to for this training. Why don't you give him a call?

3Dreaming
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Re: Looking for a CFI - not that easy

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:45 am

[quote="TimTaylor"]Just to beat this horse one more time, an example of what I'm saying:

A guy without a medical gets a Sport Pilot certificate trained by a subpart K CFIS. He gets the Sport Pilot endorsements for >87 knots and class B, C, and D airspace and flies a year logging a lot of cross country. Now, he decides he wants to fly a Cherokee 180, so he gets a 3rd class medical and a Recreational Pilot certificate using a subpart H CFI. He knows he will need to get a Recreational Pilot cross country endorsement before he can fly the Cherokee cross country. In the mean time, however, he can still fly the LSA cross country using Sport Pilot privileges and limitations. To lose the ability to do that just because he upgraded to Recreation Pilot would make no sense.[/quote]

That is your opinion. I agree that it shouldn't be that way, but sometimes the regulations don't make sense.

61.303 also contains this gem, "You must also comply with requirements in other subparts of this part that apply to your certificate and the operation you conduct.". Once he becomes a recreational pilot he must comply with the sub part D requirements, which require the endorsement to fly cross country. Even though he used to be a sport pilot he is now a recreational pilot flying a LSA under recreational pilot privileges and limitations as long as he has a medical. Just because you are flying a LSA doesn't mean you are automatically operating under sport pilot privileges and limitations.

TimTaylor
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Re: Looking for a CFI - not that easy

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:54 am

We're going to have to disagree on this. I'm a Commercial pilot flying under Sport Pilot privileges and limitations. He's a Rec pilot flying under Sport Pilot privileges and limitations if he is flying an LSA and so chooses. I would not hesitate to do so and feel confident the FAA would be OK with it.

"(a) Use the following table to determine what operating limits and endorsement requirements in this subpart, if any, apply to you when you operate a light-sport aircraft. The medical certificate specified in this table must be in compliance with § 61.2 in regards to currency and validity. If you hold a recreational pilot certificate, but not a medical certificate, you must comply with cross country requirements in § 61.101 (c), even if your flight does not exceed 50 nautical miles from your departure airport. You must also comply with requirements in other subparts of this part that apply to your certificate and the operation you conduct."

It also depends on how you interpret this paragraph. Is the last sentence in reference to "no medical"? Also, the last phrase of the last sentence says "the operation you conduct." I maintain you WOULD need the Rec Pilot cross country endorsement to fly cross country in a Cherokee 180 because of the operation you conduct. You would NOT need the Rec Pilot cross country endorsement to fly cross country in an LSA if you choose to exercise Sport Pilot privileges and limitations.

I'm saying this in reference to the example I gave above. I'm not saying this would apply to a new Rec Pilot who was not a licensed Sport Pilot and who had never received any cross country training or endorsement. This is an interpretation on my part. Others, including the FAA, may not agree.
Last edited by TimTaylor on Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:19 am, edited 3 times in total.


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