Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

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FastEddieB
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Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Postby FastEddieB » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:06 am

Link to that video: https://youtu.be/7nm_hoHhbFo

If you haven’t seen it, the whole 5+ minutes is worthwhile.

But the relevant portion begins about 3 minutes in if you’re in a hurry.

Maybe not directly relevant to this discussion, but interesting nonetheless.
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Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Postby drseti » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:09 am

I'm delighted to see this high level discussion of a very important safety topic on Sport Pilot Talk. This is exactly what was intended for this forum. Keep it up, folks!
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CharlieTango
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Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Postby CharlieTango » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:16 am

FastEddieB wrote:Link to that video: https://youtu.be/7nm_hoHhbFo

If you haven’t seen it, the whole 5+ minutes is worthwhile.

But the relevant portion begins about 3 minutes in if you’re in a hurry.

Maybe not directly relevant to this discussion, but interesting nonetheless.


Snaproll in the pattern from top rudder after the stall. That's interesting.

I read of a student practicing a forward slip on final taking her foot off the rudder because it was tired and entering a snaproll with the sudden release of rudder.

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Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Postby MrMorden » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:35 am

FastEddieB wrote:I think the main difference is that in an intentional slip a trained pilot naturally keeps a nose low attitude, and hence a good margin above the stall.


One aspect of my CTSW that I had to get used to is that in a slip to landing the airplane will pick up speed quickly, requiring some back pressure to "pick up" the nose. If I enter the slip at 52kt, it will very quickly accelerate beyond 60kt if I don't add some back pressure. So when I start a full slip it has become ingrained to also add stick pressure and watch the airspeed closely to stay on speed.

I asked my instructor about this, and he said the Diamond DA-20s he trains in have the same characteristic.
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Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Postby FastEddieB » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:47 am

CharlieTango wrote:
Snaproll in the pattern from top rudder after the stall. That's interesting.



One can imagine the sudden left roll causing reflexive, and appropriate, right rudder.

BUT, the nose had to come down aggressively at that point to unload the wings. If they were only 500' above the ground, that could be devilishly hard to do.
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Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Postby FastEddieB » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:49 am

MrMorden wrote:One aspect of my CTSW that I had to get used to is that in a slip to landing the airplane will pick up speed quickly, requiring some back pressure to "pick up" the nose.


I definitely noticed that in a recent flight in a CTSW, and another in an RV12.

My Sky Arrow is apparently much draggier than either in side profile, and drops like a rock without building speed in a slip. I think you can see that in my videos coming into our TN property, as I slip down between the trees. Its something I would have to adjust to in either of those other planes.
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Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Postby MrMorden » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:51 am

I found this to be helpful as well, it gives tons of background and gets to skidded turns at around 14 minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJQsAxB7E4Q
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CharlieTango
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Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Postby CharlieTango » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:14 am

MrMorden wrote:
FastEddieB wrote:I think the main difference is that in an intentional slip a trained pilot naturally keeps a nose low attitude, and hence a good margin above the stall.


One aspect of my CTSW that I had to get used to is that in a slip to landing the airplane will pick up speed quickly, requiring some back pressure to "pick up" the nose. If I enter the slip at 52kt, it will very quickly accelerate beyond 60kt if I don't add some back pressure. So when I start a full slip it has become ingrained to also add stick pressure and watch the airspeed closely to stay on speed.

I asked my instructor about this, and he said the Diamond DA-20s he trains in have the same characteristic.


That may have changed with your spring removal. When I slip on final, trimmed for no pressure, my stick is neutral (fore / aft) when slipping and maintaining nose low pitch.

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Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Postby MrMorden » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:47 am

CharlieTango wrote:
That may have changed with your spring removal. When I slip on final, trimmed for no pressure, my stick is neutral (fore / aft) when slipping and maintaining nose low pitch.


I didn't notice any change after the removal. I'd think this behavior would have more to do with the drag profile and shape of the airframe than the control setup. I will pay closer attention on my next flight and report the findings.
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Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Postby CharlieTango » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:51 pm

MrMorden wrote:
CharlieTango wrote:
That may have changed with your spring removal. When I slip on final, trimmed for no pressure, my stick is neutral (fore / aft) when slipping and maintaining nose low pitch.


I didn't notice any change after the removal. I'd think this behavior would have more to do with the drag profile and shape of the airframe than the control setup. I will pay closer attention on my next flight and report the findings.


The slip is a high drag maneuver and you are assigning 'slippery' results, sounds like the spring to me. If you think about a slip as 'presenting the fuselage to the relative wind' then you can see the CT is at a real disadvantage the way it tapers down to the size of a big pipe and creates an enormous opening for airflow to escape when slipping, kind of a lower drag slip.


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