Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Sport aviation is growing rapidly. But the new sport pilot / light-sport aircraft rules are still a mystery to many flight schools and instructors. To locate a flight school offering sport pilot training and/or light-sport aircraft rentals, click on the "Flight School And Rental Finder" tab above. This is a great place to share ideas on learning to fly, flight schools, costs and anything else related to training.

Moderator: drseti

User avatar
FastEddieB
Posts: 2880
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Post by FastEddieB »

Link to that video: https://youtu.be/7nm_hoHhbFo

If you haven’t seen it, the whole 5+ minutes is worthwhile.

But the relevant portion begins about 3 minutes in if you’re in a hurry.

Maybe not directly relevant to this discussion, but interesting nonetheless.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
CFI, CFII, CFIME
[email protected]
User avatar
drseti
Posts: 7227
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Lock Haven PA
Contact:

Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Post by drseti »

I'm delighted to see this high level discussion of a very important safety topic on Sport Pilot Talk. This is exactly what was intended for this forum. Keep it up, folks!
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
User avatar
CharlieTango
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
Location: Mammoth Lakes, California

Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Post by CharlieTango »

FastEddieB wrote:Link to that video: https://youtu.be/7nm_hoHhbFo

If you haven’t seen it, the whole 5+ minutes is worthwhile.

But the relevant portion begins about 3 minutes in if you’re in a hurry.

Maybe not directly relevant to this discussion, but interesting nonetheless.
Snaproll in the pattern from top rudder after the stall. That's interesting.

I read of a student practicing a forward slip on final taking her foot off the rudder because it was tired and entering a snaproll with the sudden release of rudder.
User avatar
MrMorden
Posts: 2184
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Athens, GA

Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Post by MrMorden »

FastEddieB wrote: I think the main difference is that in an intentional slip a trained pilot naturally keeps a nose low attitude, and hence a good margin above the stall.
One aspect of my CTSW that I had to get used to is that in a slip to landing the airplane will pick up speed quickly, requiring some back pressure to "pick up" the nose. If I enter the slip at 52kt, it will very quickly accelerate beyond 60kt if I don't add some back pressure. So when I start a full slip it has become ingrained to also add stick pressure and watch the airspeed closely to stay on speed.

I asked my instructor about this, and he said the Diamond DA-20s he trains in have the same characteristic.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
User avatar
FastEddieB
Posts: 2880
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Post by FastEddieB »

CharlieTango wrote:
Snaproll in the pattern from top rudder after the stall. That's interesting.
One can imagine the sudden left roll causing reflexive, and appropriate, right rudder.

BUT, the nose had to come down aggressively at that point to unload the wings. If they were only 500' above the ground, that could be devilishly hard to do.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
CFI, CFII, CFIME
[email protected]
User avatar
FastEddieB
Posts: 2880
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Post by FastEddieB »

MrMorden wrote: One aspect of my CTSW that I had to get used to is that in a slip to landing the airplane will pick up speed quickly, requiring some back pressure to "pick up" the nose.
I definitely noticed that in a recent flight in a CTSW, and another in an RV12.

My Sky Arrow is apparently much draggier than either in side profile, and drops like a rock without building speed in a slip. I think you can see that in my videos coming into our TN property, as I slip down between the trees. Its something I would have to adjust to in either of those other planes.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
CFI, CFII, CFIME
[email protected]
User avatar
MrMorden
Posts: 2184
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Athens, GA

Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Post by MrMorden »

I found this to be helpful as well, it gives tons of background and gets to skidded turns at around 14 minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJQsAxB7E4Q
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
User avatar
CharlieTango
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
Location: Mammoth Lakes, California

Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Post by CharlieTango »

MrMorden wrote:
FastEddieB wrote: I think the main difference is that in an intentional slip a trained pilot naturally keeps a nose low attitude, and hence a good margin above the stall.
One aspect of my CTSW that I had to get used to is that in a slip to landing the airplane will pick up speed quickly, requiring some back pressure to "pick up" the nose. If I enter the slip at 52kt, it will very quickly accelerate beyond 60kt if I don't add some back pressure. So when I start a full slip it has become ingrained to also add stick pressure and watch the airspeed closely to stay on speed.

I asked my instructor about this, and he said the Diamond DA-20s he trains in have the same characteristic.
That may have changed with your spring removal. When I slip on final, trimmed for no pressure, my stick is neutral (fore / aft) when slipping and maintaining nose low pitch.
User avatar
MrMorden
Posts: 2184
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Athens, GA

Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Post by MrMorden »

CharlieTango wrote:
That may have changed with your spring removal. When I slip on final, trimmed for no pressure, my stick is neutral (fore / aft) when slipping and maintaining nose low pitch.
I didn't notice any change after the removal. I'd think this behavior would have more to do with the drag profile and shape of the airframe than the control setup. I will pay closer attention on my next flight and report the findings.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA
User avatar
CharlieTango
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
Location: Mammoth Lakes, California

Re: Avoiding inadvertent spins in the pattern

Post by CharlieTango »

MrMorden wrote:
CharlieTango wrote:
That may have changed with your spring removal. When I slip on final, trimmed for no pressure, my stick is neutral (fore / aft) when slipping and maintaining nose low pitch.
I didn't notice any change after the removal. I'd think this behavior would have more to do with the drag profile and shape of the airframe than the control setup. I will pay closer attention on my next flight and report the findings.
The slip is a high drag maneuver and you are assigning 'slippery' results, sounds like the spring to me. If you think about a slip as 'presenting the fuselage to the relative wind' then you can see the CT is at a real disadvantage the way it tapers down to the size of a big pipe and creates an enormous opening for airflow to escape when slipping, kind of a lower drag slip.
Post Reply