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Re: Instrument Trainining
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:19 am
by 3Dreaming
TimTaylor wrote:3Dreaming wrote:TimTaylor wrote:I guess I am misusing the term "certified for instrument flight." For me, regardless of how others might interpret this, I will never file an IFR flight plan or accept an IFR clearance in an airplane the is not fully equipped, current, and legal to fly IFR in IMC conditions. Another reason I will not do this is I am not IFR current or legal because my medical has expired, I don't intend to renew it, and I don't qualify for Basic Med.
The conversation is about the fact that it is legal to do so in VMC with a airplane that is fully equipped, current and legal to fly IFR, even though it is prohibited from flight in IMC. The FAA says it is, so it must be.
Yes, if it is an instrument training flight.
The original reason for the order was examiners were of your same opinion that the airplane had to be approved for IMC to be usable for IFR training or the instrument checkride. The FAA said they were wrong.
Re: Instrument Trainining
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:32 am
by TimTaylor
That was not my opinion. My opinion was and still is that you, or I, or anyone else cannot/should not file IFR and accept an IFR clearance if the airplane and pilot is not fully legal to fly IFR in IMC conditions. I'm not talking about training flights, but just flying. I'm not limiting my discussion to planes that are certified against IFR. I'm talking about planes that are not legal IFR for any reason.
Re: Instrument Trainining
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:15 am
by 3Dreaming
TimTaylor wrote:That was not my opinion. My opinion was and still is that you, or I, or anyone else cannot/should not file IFR and accept an IFR clearance if the airplane and pilot is not fully legal to fly IFR in IMC conditions. I'm not talking about training flights, but just flying. I'm not limiting my discussion to planes that are certified against IFR. I'm talking about planes that are not legal IFR for any reason.
Of course you should never file or accept an IFR clearance in a airplane that is not legal for IFR. I have never said anything to the contrary. Your problem is you keep lumping legal for IFR and not approved for IMC into the same basket. They are in fact two separate things. It is perfectly OK for you to choose not to accept a IFR flight plan based on the fact that the airplane is not approved for flight in IMC. That doesn't change the fact that it is perfectly legal to do so.
Re: Instrument Trainining
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:44 am
by TimTaylor
3Dreaming wrote:TimTaylor wrote:That was not my opinion. My opinion was and still is that you, or I, or anyone else cannot/should not file IFR and accept an IFR clearance if the airplane and pilot is not fully legal to fly IFR in IMC conditions. I'm not talking about training flights, but just flying. I'm not limiting my discussion to planes that are certified against IFR. I'm talking about planes that are not legal IFR for any reason.
Of course you should never file or accept an IFR clearance in a airplane that is not legal for IFR. I have never said anything to the contrary. Your problem is you keep lumping legal for IFR and not approved for IMC into the same basket. They are in fact two separate things. It is perfectly OK for you to choose not to accept a IFR flight plan based on the fact that the airplane is not approved for flight in IMC. That doesn't change the fact that it is perfectly legal to do so.
But as I read what you posted, only for a training flight. And yes, I lump them together. If someone wants to train an IFR student in a C172 that is not IFR current, evidently that is OK, in VMC. If someone wants to file IFR in the same airplane on a VMC day, evidently that is not OK.
Re: Instrument Trainining
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:42 pm
by 3Dreaming
TimTaylor wrote:3Dreaming wrote:TimTaylor wrote:That was not my opinion. My opinion was and still is that you, or I, or anyone else cannot/should not file IFR and accept an IFR clearance if the airplane and pilot is not fully legal to fly IFR in IMC conditions. I'm not talking about training flights, but just flying. I'm not limiting my discussion to planes that are certified against IFR. I'm talking about planes that are not legal IFR for any reason.
Of course you should never file or accept an IFR clearance in a airplane that is not legal for IFR. I have never said anything to the contrary. Your problem is you keep lumping legal for IFR and not approved for IMC into the same basket. They are in fact two separate things. It is perfectly OK for you to choose not to accept a IFR flight plan based on the fact that the airplane is not approved for flight in IMC. That doesn't change the fact that it is perfectly legal to do so.
But as I read what you posted, only for a training flight. And yes, I lump them together. If someone wants to train an IFR student in a C172 that is not IFR current, evidently that is OK, in VMC. If someone wants to file IFR in the same airplane on a VMC day, evidently that is not OK.
Yes, the order I posted pertains to pilot certification and training flights. Just because the order I posted is directed for training flights doesn't meen that you can't also file IFR in VMC conditions with the same airplane for non training flights. You are making that jump on your own without supporting documentation.
As for the C172 comment. You can not do instrument flight training on an instrument flight plan in a airplane that is not IFR current. The order I posted clearly states that the aircraft must have the required equipment spelled out in 91.205 for IFR flight, and also the test required by 91.411 and 91.413 making it IFR current.
Re: Instrument Trainining
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:49 pm
by TimTaylor
Yes, I and several others here are making that leap. The leap is you cannot fly IFR in VMC unless you and the plane are legal for IFR in IMC. I'm done.
Re: Instrument Trainining
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:04 pm
by 3Dreaming
TimTaylor wrote:Yes, I and several others here are making that leap. The leap is you cannot fly IFR in VMC unless you and the plane are legal for IFR in IMC. I'm done.
If you would simply drop the IMC off the end of your statement then you would be correct.
Re: Instrument Trainining
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:16 pm
by TimTaylor
If your statement is correct, then my statement has to be correct.
Re: Instrument Trainining
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:25 pm
by 3Dreaming
TimTaylor wrote:If your statement is correct, then my statement has to be correct.
Would you care to share your thought logic?
Re: Instrument Trainining
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:32 pm
by TimTaylor
Do you know how an airplane could be legal for IFR in IMC but not legal for IFR in VMC?
Re: Instrument Trainining
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:32 pm
by Wm.Ince
3Dreaming wrote:TimTaylor wrote:If your statement is correct, then my statement has to be correct.
Would you care to share your thought logic?
Re: Instrument Trainining
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:06 am
by 3Dreaming
TimTaylor wrote:Do you know how an airplane could be legal for IFR in IMC but not legal for IFR in VMC?
Yes, but I also know that an airplane can be legal for IFR flight in VMC, and prohibited from flight in IMC by type certificate or ASTM standards.
The FAA order says it can be done, and the pilot must remain in VFR conditions while on the IFR flight plan. You don't have to be in IMC conditions to be on a IFR flight plan.
I know the order I posted specifically covers training, but that doesn't mean that the same also applies to non training flights. If it is OK to do it for training, then why isn't it OK to do it to maintain proficiency or gain experience after receiving your rating? Unless there is other guidance or regulation that says a aircraft must be capable of flight in IMC to be on a IFR flight plan, it is easy enough to make the jump that if it is OK to do for training it is OK to do for any flight on a IFR flight plan. At least this jump is based in words written by the FAA.
Re: Instrument Trainining
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:11 am
by 3Dreaming
TimTaylor wrote:Do you know how an airplane could be legal for IFR in IMC but not legal for IFR in VMC?
Does a flight on a IFR flight plan require that the aircraft be flown in IMC?
Re: Instrument Trainining
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:00 pm
by TimTaylor
Of course not.
Re: Instrument Trainining
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:55 pm
by 3Dreaming
TimTaylor wrote:Of course not.
Can it be flown completely in VMC?