Instrument Trainining

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3Dreaming
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby 3Dreaming » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:32 am

Wm.Ince wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:This is the FAA's stance, at least for type certified aircraft that are not approved for IFR flight.

I found it. ORDER 8900.1, Volume 5.

5-439 USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING. The following paragraphs are intended to clarify the use of an aircraft not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate for instrument flight training and/or airman certification testing.

A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91 , sections (§§) 91.109 , 91.205 , and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413 . An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.

Thanks for digging that up for us.
Observing the above, the implication I get is, there must be a CFII providing training or testing during the operation, although, it does not specifically say so.
Any thoughts on that?
It makes for interesting discussion.


Only a portion of the training for a instrument rating is required to be with a CFII. I think it is legal to fly simulated instruments with a safety pilot or regular CFI.

3Dreaming
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby 3Dreaming » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:47 am

TimTaylor wrote:According to that, it would be OK to file for an instrument training flight in VMC even if the airplane is not properly equipped, certified, and current for IFR in IMC. That implies to me it would not be OK to file for a flight that is not an instrument training flight. That makes sense to me. You would want the student to learn how to file and operate on an IFR flight, but don't want the rest of us filing in airplanes that are not properly equipped, certified, and current for actual IFR flight in IMC conditions.

I really don't think they want a guy in a J3 with a tablet and handheld filing IFR.


Most airplanes are not certified for IFR. It is not part of the certification process. However there are a few that have flight in IMC prohibited on their type certification data sheet, like the Diamond DA-20. For example at a quick glance I didn't see anything in the Cessna 172 type certificate data sheet saying it is approved for IFR flight, but we all know it can be flown IFR in IMC.

I think what you and others are confusing as IFR certified is the required testing of the pitot static system and altimeter, as well as the transponder test. These test have long been confused as IFR certification. It is kind of like the wrong term being used for controlled airspace. Any airplane that has the required equipment per 91.205, and the required test spelled out in 91.411 and 91.413 can be flown in the airspace system on a IFR flight plan. The same airplane can fly in IMC provided it is not prohibited by its type certificate or certification standards.

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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:11 pm

I guess I am misusing the term "certified for instrument flight." For me, regardless of how others might interpret this, I will never file an IFR flight plan or accept an IFR clearance in an airplane the is not fully equipped, current, and legal to fly IFR in IMC conditions. Another reason I will not do this is I am not IFR current or legal because my medical has expired, I don't intend to renew it, and I don't qualify for Basic Med.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

3Dreaming
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby 3Dreaming » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:35 pm

TimTaylor wrote:I guess I am misusing the term "certified for instrument flight." For me, regardless of how others might interpret this, I will never file an IFR flight plan or accept an IFR clearance in an airplane the is not fully equipped, current, and legal to fly IFR in IMC conditions. Another reason I will not do this is I am not IFR current or legal because my medical has expired, I don't intend to renew it, and I don't qualify for Basic Med.


The conversation is not about convincing you to fly IFR in a airplane that is prohibited from flight in IMC. I have no expectations of you ever changing your mind. The conversation is about the fact that it is legal to do so in VMC with a airplane that is fully equipped, current and legal to fly IFR, even though it is prohibited from flight in IMC. The FAA says it is, so it must be.

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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby Wm.Ince » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:39 pm

3Dreaming wrote:The conversation is about the fact that it is legal to do so in VMC with a airplane that is fully equipped, current and legal to fly IFR, even though it is prohibited from flight in IMC. The FAA says it is, so it must be.

That is the correct issue.
Glad you clarified that.
Bill Ince
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Retired Heavy Equipment Operator

TimTaylor
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:13 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:I guess I am misusing the term "certified for instrument flight." For me, regardless of how others might interpret this, I will never file an IFR flight plan or accept an IFR clearance in an airplane the is not fully equipped, current, and legal to fly IFR in IMC conditions. Another reason I will not do this is I am not IFR current or legal because my medical has expired, I don't intend to renew it, and I don't qualify for Basic Med.


The conversation is not about convincing you to fly IFR in a airplane that is prohibited from flight in IMC. I have no expectations of you ever changing your mind. The conversation is about the fact that it is legal to do so in VMC with a airplane that is fully equipped, current and legal to fly IFR, even though it is prohibited from flight in IMC. The FAA says it is, so it must be.

The conversation is about anything we make it about. You don't have to respond.
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TimTaylor
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:22 pm

TimTaylor wrote:The problem with filing an IFR flight plan in an airplane that's not legal to fly in IMC is, what would prevent you from venturing into IMC conditions momentarily. I don't think it's a good idea, regardless. What if you get vectored into some IMC, etc.?

This would pertain to LSA or any other airplane that is not equipped or current for IFR in IMC.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

TimTaylor
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:27 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:If you file IFR the plane and pilot should be capable and legal (including currency) to fly IFR (in IMC) . That's my opinion. I can't quote a regulation that says this and not going to spend time looking for one.


My opinion is that you can safely and legally file IFR in VMC conditions with an airplane that is prohibited from flight in IMC. No need to spend your time looking for the regulation, because it's not there.

You said airplane, not LSA.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

TimTaylor
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:29 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
drseti wrote:Tom, I agree that you and I could do this safely. The problem is, the rules are written for the lowest common denominator. :(


I agree, follow the rules. That was the whole point of my post. While flight in IMC is prohibited, filing IFR in VMC is not. The FAA addressed this with the Diamond DA20.

ORDER 8900.1, Volume 5.

5-439 USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING. The following paragraphs are intended to clarify the use of an aircraft not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate for instrument flight training and/or airman certification testing.

A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91 , sections (§§) 91.109 , 91.205 , and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413 . An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.

Not an LSA.
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TimTaylor
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:32 pm

3Dreaming wrote:This is the FAA's stance, at least for type certified aircraft that are not approved for IFR flight.

I found it. ORDER 8900.1, Volume 5.

5-439 USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING. The following paragraphs are intended to clarify the use of an aircraft not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate for instrument flight training and/or airman certification testing.

A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91 , sections (§§) 91.109 , 91.205 , and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413 . An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.

This is not just about LSA.
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TimTaylor
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:39 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:I guess I am misusing the term "certified for instrument flight." For me, regardless of how others might interpret this, I will never file an IFR flight plan or accept an IFR clearance in an airplane the is not fully equipped, current, and legal to fly IFR in IMC conditions. Another reason I will not do this is I am not IFR current or legal because my medical has expired, I don't intend to renew it, and I don't qualify for Basic Med.


The conversation is about the fact that it is legal to do so in VMC with a airplane that is fully equipped, current and legal to fly IFR, even though it is prohibited from flight in IMC. The FAA says it is, so it must be.

Yes, if it is an instrument training flight.
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby Jim Hardin » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:00 am

3Dreaming wrote:This is the FAA's stance, at least for type certified aircraft that are not approved for IFR flight.

I found it. ORDER 8900.1, Volume 5.

5-439 USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING. The following paragraphs are intended to clarify the use of an aircraft not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate for instrument flight training and/or airman certification testing.

A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91 , sections (§§) 91.109 , 91.205 , and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413 . An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.


Well done, thanks!

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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby 3Dreaming » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:05 am

TimTaylor wrote:The problem with filing an IFR flight plan in an airplane that's not legal to fly in IMC is, what would prevent you from venturing into IMC conditions momentarily. I don't think it's a good idea, regardless. What if you get vectored into some IMC, etc.?


The pilot or safety pilot.

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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby 3Dreaming » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:08 am

TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:If you file IFR the plane and pilot should be capable and legal (including currency) to fly IFR (in IMC) . That's my opinion. I can't quote a regulation that says this and not going to spend time looking for one.


My opinion is that you can safely and legally file IFR in VMC conditions with an airplane that is prohibited from flight in IMC. No need to spend your time looking for the regulation, because it's not there.

You said airplane, not LSA.


While all LSA are not airplanes and all airplanes are not LSA, a airplane can certainly be a LSA.

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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby 3Dreaming » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:14 am

TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
drseti wrote:Tom, I agree that you and I could do this safely. The problem is, the rules are written for the lowest common denominator. :(


I agree, follow the rules. That was the whole point of my post. While flight in IMC is prohibited, filing IFR in VMC is not. The FAA addressed this with the Diamond DA20.

ORDER 8900.1, Volume 5.

5-439 USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING. The following paragraphs are intended to clarify the use of an aircraft not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate for instrument flight training and/or airman certification testing.

A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91 , sections (§§) 91.109 , 91.205 , and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413 . An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.

Not an LSA.


The FAA order says any aircraft. I think the A in LSA stands for aircraft.


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