Instrument Trainining

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drseti
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby drseti » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:08 am

Tom, my only source is the extensive discussion threads on the LSRM LinkedIn discussion group that Carol set up. It seems not to be in the FARs, but rather an ASTM F-39 rule, so may be a gray area.

The problem with filing is you must then accept and abide by a clearance, including altitudes, headings, and vectors which might then take you into IMC. If you can't legally comply with a clearance, I don't see how you could accept it. This leaves you with a need to cancel IFR if you can't maintain VFR - with a corresponding impact on ATC and other airspace users.
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby foresterpoole » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:35 am

I'll add that in this case I'll be flying a 172SP and it meets all IFR and night equipment requirements. I was going to keep flying the Technam while possible (it is night capable), the school prefers to use the 172's for instrument and night training. Their rationale is it is a more stable platform for instrument training, it has a VOR system, and the gauges are back-lit and easier to read. I'd have to agree.... it's only 35 more an hour so I'm not seriously breaking the bank, and I can always swap back to the Technam afterwards.
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:21 am

The problem with filing an IFR flight plan in an airplane that's not legal to fly in IMC is, what would prevent you from venturing into IMC conditions momentarily. I don't think it's a good idea, regardless. What if you get vectored into some IMC, etc.?
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:49 am

Paul, a pilot who is capable of filing of filing and flying a IFR flight plan should be capable of doing so only when conditions will remain VFR, especially in an environment they are familiar with. As long as they know the limitations and abide by them I don't see a problem. It could be an issue for someone who has a problem following the rules.

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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:54 am

TimTaylor wrote:The problem with filing an IFR flight plan in an airplane that's not legal to fly in IMC is, what would prevent you from venturing into IMC conditions momentarily. I don't think it's a good idea, regardless. What if you get vectored into some IMC, etc.?


Knowing and understanding the limitations of no flight in IMC is what should keep you from flying into it. Also understanding the weather and not flying when there is a chance of being vectored into IMC conditions.

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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby drseti » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:46 pm

Tom, I agree that you and I could do this safely. The problem is, the rules are written for the lowest common denominator. :(
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:44 pm

If you file IFR the plane and pilot should be capable and legal (including currency) to fly IFR (in IMC) . That's my opinion. I can't quote a regulation that says this and not going to spend time looking for one.
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:11 pm

drseti wrote:Tom, I agree that you and I could do this safely. The problem is, the rules are written for the lowest common denominator. :(


I agree, follow the rules. That was the whole point of my post. While flight in IMC is prohibited, filing IFR in VMC is not. The FAA addressed this with the Diamond DA20.

ORDER 8900.1, Volume 5.

5-439 USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING. The following paragraphs are intended to clarify the use of an aircraft not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate for instrument flight training and/or airman certification testing.

A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91 , sections (§§) 91.109 , 91.205 , and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413 . An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.

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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:14 pm

TimTaylor wrote:If you file IFR the plane and pilot should be capable and legal (including currency) to fly IFR (in IMC) . That's my opinion. I can't quote a regulation that says this and not going to spend time looking for one.


My opinion is that you can safely and legally file IFR in VMC conditions with an airplane that is prohibited from flight in IMC. No need to spend your time looking for the regulation, because it's not there.

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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby Jim Hardin » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:15 am

I think a technicality would be that it is not legal to file/fly an airplane that is not certified for IFR flight. LSA's are not certified for IFR flight by their manufacture. Some are certified for Night Flight, provided the aircraft is properly equipped, but I have not seen any that are certified for IFR on that basis. If you have an ELSA then you can certify your aircraft for IFR flight.

GA aircraft are certified for IFR, if properly equipped. Properly equipped would mean it is up to the pilot to make sure all the required stuff is in there and that it meets inspection requirement.

I honestly cannot recall any specific regulation defining this but when compared to other rulings I don't think the FAA will see it as a blank check to file as long as you stay VFR :D


This is a link https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2015/collins%20-%20(2015)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf to a ruling about filing an IFR flight plan to an airport which doesn't have an approach and one about when you don't have the equipment to navigate the route. Notice that the rules don't change even if you stay in VFR conditions.

Not the same question being asked here, but I think it is useful insight into the FAA thinking.

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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby FastEddieB » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:30 am

Not Paul, but I believe the determining factor is the Operating Limitations for any particular S-LSA - or E-LSA for that matter.
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby 3Dreaming » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:43 am

This is the FAA's stance, at least for type certified aircraft that are not approved for IFR flight.

I found it. ORDER 8900.1, Volume 5.

5-439 USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING. The following paragraphs are intended to clarify the use of an aircraft not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate for instrument flight training and/or airman certification testing.

A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91 , sections (§§) 91.109 , 91.205 , and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413 . An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.

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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby TimTaylor » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:51 am

According to that, it would be OK to file for an instrument training flight in VMC even if the airplane is not properly equipped, certified, and current for IFR in IMC. That implies to me it would not be OK to file for a flight that is not an instrument training flight. That makes sense to me. You would want the student to learn how to file and operate on an IFR flight, but don't want the rest of us filing in airplanes that are not properly equipped, certified, and current for actual IFR flight in IMC conditions.

I really don't think they want a guy in a J3 with a tablet and handheld filing IFR.
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby Wm.Ince » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:18 am

3Dreaming wrote:This is the FAA's stance, at least for type certified aircraft that are not approved for IFR flight.

I found it. ORDER 8900.1, Volume 5.

5-439 USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING. The following paragraphs are intended to clarify the use of an aircraft not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate for instrument flight training and/or airman certification testing.

A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91 , sections (§§) 91.109 , 91.205 , and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413 . An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.

Thanks for digging that up for us.
Observing the above, the implication I get is, there must be a CFII providing training or testing during the operation, although, it does not specifically say so.
Any thoughts on that?
It makes for interesting discussion.
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Re: Instrument Trainining

Postby 3Dreaming » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:29 am

TimTaylor wrote:According to that, it would be OK to file for an instrument training flight in VMC even if the airplane is not properly equipped, certified, and current for IFR in IMC. That implies to me it would not be OK to file for a flight that is not an instrument training flight. That makes sense to me. You would want the student to learn how to file and operate on an IFR flight, but don't want the rest of us filing in airplanes that are not properly equipped, certified, and current for actual IFR flight in IMC conditions.

I really don't think they want a guy in a J3 with a tablet and handheld filing IFR.


No flying around IFR in a J-3 with a tablet. You must have the required equipment for IFR flight per 91.205, a current pitot static system check per 91.411, and the transponder check per 91.413.
The ruling was made for the Diamond DA20. For it the type certificate prohibits flight in IMC, much like it is prohibited for SLSA aircraft.


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