Got your license... now what?

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3Dreaming
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:50 pm

MrMorden wrote:All of that it true technically, but in common usage people mean "controlled airspace" to mean airspace where interaction with ATC is required. If somebody said they were flying along in class E and decided to deviate to the south to avoid controlled airspace, we'd all know what they meant.


Andy, interaction with ATC is required in class E airspace on a IFR flight plan. This is what makes it controlled airspace. You are only looking at it from the point of a VFR pilot. As a CFI who is actively teaching I think it is important for a pilot to know and understand the airspace system. What truly amazes me is the number of pilots who are flying that don't understand the system.

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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby TimTaylor » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:59 pm

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MrMorden
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby MrMorden » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:37 am

3Dreaming wrote:
MrMorden wrote:All of that it true technically, but in common usage people mean "controlled airspace" to mean airspace where interaction with ATC is required. If somebody said they were flying along in class E and decided to deviate to the south to avoid controlled airspace, we'd all know what they meant.


Andy, interaction with ATC is required in class E airspace on a IFR flight plan. This is what makes it controlled airspace. You are only looking at it from the point of a VFR pilot. As a CFI who is actively teaching I think it is important for a pilot to know and understand the airspace system. What truly amazes me is the number of pilots who are flying that don't understand the system.


I understand all of that. I'm looking at this from a perspective of how pilots talk to each other when they are standing around chatting. Not what is in the FARs, not what is required knowledge on a checkride. My point was not that misusing the term "controlled airspace" in this way is correct, only that it is completely understood by any pilot that hears it.

My point is that if you use the term "controlled airspace" in this way, you are very unlikely to be misunderstood, even by IFR pilots. To turn this around, how do you think a VFR pilot should refer to airspace that requires them to interact with ATC? They are unlikely to say "B, C, D airspace plus restricted areas" in casual conversation...
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby Warmi » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:22 am

Makes perfect sense MrMorden:

Common language, as adopted and used by every-day people , tends to reflect relevant reality much better than regulations and rules , precisely because such language develops as a direct result of experiences people deem relevant to their involvement with the domain.

Not to say that rules and regulations are not important but people naturally tend to prioritize such rules in a way that reflects their needs.
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby 3Dreaming » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:01 am

MrMorden wrote: I understand all of that. I'm looking at this from a perspective of how pilots talk to each other when they are standing around chatting. Not what is in the FARs, not what is required knowledge on a checkride. My point was not that misusing the term "controlled airspace" in this way is correct, only that it is completely understood by any pilot that hears it.

My point is that if you use the term "controlled airspace" in this way, you are very unlikely to be misunderstood, even by IFR pilots. To turn this around, how do you think a VFR pilot should refer to airspace that requires them to interact with ATC? They are unlikely to say "B, C, D airspace plus restricted areas" in casual conversation...


Andy, I am primarily a VRF pilot, and I almost always refer to the airspace by its letter designation. Other VFR pilots around here do the same. I flew to Oshkosh in my dad's 1941 Taylorcraft, with a friend following in his 1938 Luscombe. Neither airplane has an electrical system or transponder. We were using hand held radios. I specifically remember telling him our route of flight was going to be from KOLY to Monticello to avoid the Champaign class C airspace.

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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby MrMorden » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:22 am

3Dreaming wrote:
MrMorden wrote:Andy, I am primarily a VRF pilot, and I almost always refer to the airspace by its letter designation. Other VFR pilots around here do the same. I flew to Oshkosh in my dad's 1941 Taylorcraft, with a friend following in his 1938 Luscombe. Neither airplane has an electrical system or transponder. We were using hand held radios. I specifically remember telling him our route of flight was going to be from KOLY to Monticello to avoid the Champaign class C airspace.


In your example, which is specific to a certain piece of airspace, most pilots I know would do the same. But in the more generic sense referring to ATC-managed airspace (for VFR), most pilots I know would have an exchange like this:

Bill: "Hey Ted, let's plan the route to Page for the big CT fly-in!"

Ted: "Whoa, totally! But let's do it to avoid controlled airspace, so we don't have to mess with controllers."

Bill: "Excellent dude!"

In the above context, even if Bill is an IFR pilot, he's going to know *exactly* what Ted means by "controlled airspace". He's incredibly unlikely to assume Ted means they should fly at 600ft AGL to stay in Class G airspace along their entire route.
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby TimTaylor » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:56 am

I don't know why anyone would want to perpetuate a "common" misunderstanding of what controlled airspace is. A lot of pilots actually believe it is only A, B, C, and D. Most of our flying is in controlled class E airspace and subject to FAR's pertaining to class E. This is important for Private and Commercial pilots in regard to VFR weather minimums for instance.
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby 3Dreaming » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:05 pm

MrMorden wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
MrMorden wrote:Andy, I am primarily a VRF pilot, and I almost always refer to the airspace by its letter designation. Other VFR pilots around here do the same. I flew to Oshkosh in my dad's 1941 Taylorcraft, with a friend following in his 1938 Luscombe. Neither airplane has an electrical system or transponder. We were using hand held radios. I specifically remember telling him our route of flight was going to be from KOLY to Monticello to avoid the Champaign class C airspace.


In your example, which is specific to a certain piece of airspace, most pilots I know would do the same. But in the more generic sense referring to ATC-managed airspace (for VFR), most pilots I know would have an exchange like this:

Bill: "Hey Ted, let's plan the route to Page for the big CT fly-in!"

Ted: "Whoa, totally! But let's do it to avoid controlled airspace, so we don't have to mess with controllers."

Bill: "Excellent dude!"

In the above context, even if Bill is an IFR pilot, he's going to know *exactly* what Ted means by "controlled airspace". He's incredibly unlikely to assume Ted means they should fly at 600ft AGL to stay in Class G airspace along their entire route.


Of course he shouldn't assume Ted means to fly a 600AGL all the way. Controlled airspace doesn't start until 1200 AGL most places so he is planning flying at 1000 feet. :roll:
I don't recall any of the pilots around here saying they wanted to avoid controlled airspace in conversation. Maybe it is a regional thing. If I wanted to get across that I didn't want to talk to ATC, I would say lets avoid towered airports instead of saying controlled airspace. It says what you really mean, it is quite understandable, and is factually correct.

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hirschr
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby hirschr » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:23 pm

I'm with MrM on this. The breakfast seeking poker run type I fly (VFR) with would mean Class B and C when they talk of controlled. Either way, I'll bet Bill and Ted had an Excellent Adventure on their flight...

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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby TimTaylor » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:43 pm

This discussion is silly. Controlled airspace is A, B, C, D, and E. If you want to use incorrect terminology, that's your choice, but don't try to justify it because people you talk to know what you mean.

Edit: If I was flying with you, I would ask, "Are you going to try to go through the Atlanta class B or are you going around it? Are you going around, over, under, or through the Greenville class C? What is the top of the PDK class D? Seems pretty simple to me.

Edit2: If I said, "Watch out for that controlled airspace", what the heck does that mean?
Last edited by TimTaylor on Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby Wm.Ince » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:11 pm

hirschr wrote:I'm with MrM on this. The breakfast seeking poker run type I fly (VFR) with would mean Class B and C when they talk of controlled. Either way, I'll bet Bill and Ted had an Excellent Adventure on their flight...

We did indeed.
And what's more . . . I knew exactly what Ted meant, as soon as he mentioned it. Even though he didn't go into rigorous and scouring details . . we were on the same page.
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby rcpilot » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:26 pm

For example in these parts the most common MO for negotiating the JFK class B appears to be flying under it, which means a stretch along the shore at or below 500'. Very scenic.

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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby MrMorden » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:31 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
Of course he shouldn't assume Ted means to fly a 600AGL all the way. Controlled airspace doesn't start until 1200 AGL most places so he is planning flying at 1000 feet. :roll:


Roll your eyes all you want to, but class E starts at 700AGL in many areas around airports. But I'm sure you know that...so WHY are you perpetuating incorrect information?!? :lol:
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby MrMorden » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:45 pm

TimTaylor wrote:This discussion is silly. Controlled airspace is A, B, C, D, and E. If you want to use incorrect terminology, that's your choice, but don't try to justify it because people you talk to know what you mean.

Edit: If I was flying with you, I would ask, "Are you going to try to go through the Atlanta class B or are you going around it? Are you going around, over, under, or through the Greenville class C? What is the top of the PDK class D? Seems pretty simple to me.

Edit2: If I said, "Watch out for that controlled airspace", what the heck does that mean?


Well, the great thing here is I don't have to justify *anything* to you. I never tried to defend incorrect terminology, what I said is that this is the way many pilots talk, and if you say something like this you will not be misunderstood, no matter how many pedantic hand-wringing gotcha game players protest otherwise.

Correcting everybody that uses incorrect terminology when it's known perfectly well what they mean just makes you look like an ass. You don't have to constantly show everybody how much smarter you are in every conversation. If you just disagree, make sure to tell everybody who says "ramp" that the correct term is "apron", and see how long it takes before somebody mutters under their breath for you to go eff yourself.

Honestly, this is one of the things I *hate* about aviation. It's full of blowhards who are consumed with making sure everybody does things their way, knows they are the smartest (or at least, most anal-retentive) person in the room, and argue over how many flight attendants can legally dance on the head of a pin -- instead of just going out and enjoying flying as the glorious pursuit that it is.
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby TimTaylor » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:08 pm

Floor of class E is 700 feet around and over airports with instrument approach. I believe there are some airports where it comes all the way to the surface. It's 1200 feet most everywhere else. Out west I think it's much higher in places.

I don't think you have to be all that smart to understand airspace and the difference between controlled and uncontrolled.
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