Got your license... now what?

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3Dreaming
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:42 am

MrMorden wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
Of course he shouldn't assume Ted means to fly a 600AGL all the way. Controlled airspace doesn't start until 1200 AGL most places so he is planning flying at 1000 feet. :roll:


Roll your eyes all you want to, but class E starts at 700AGL in many areas around airports. But I'm sure you know that...so WHY are you perpetuating incorrect information?!? :lol:


No offense to Bill, but you Bill and Ted schtick and following conclusion was worthy of an eye roll. Your above statement is also worthy, but I'm not going to add one. The last thing I would want to do is perpetuate incorrect information. What information did I put forth that you thought was in accurate?

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MrMorden
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby MrMorden » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:04 am

3Dreaming wrote:The last thing I would want to do is perpetuate incorrect information. What information did I put forth that you thought was in accurate?


That class E starts at 1200ft. If you really want to make sure to avoid class E in all areas, you need to be under 700agl.

To be clear, I was tongue in cheek about you pushing wrong information, I have no doubt you know airspace. That is kind of my point; just because somebody uses the term "controlled airspace" to mean towered airport airspace + restricted areas, doesn't mean they don't know the true definition of controlled airspace. They are just using a term of convenience, and I don't feel the need to correct somebody and assume they are dangerously ignorant just because of that shorthand usage.

Again, I know a lot of very experienced aviators, who know far more about flying that I could ever hope to learn in my short lifetime, who "misuse" that term in casual conversation. I'm not about to correct them on it, especially when I know exactly what they are saying.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
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2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

3Dreaming
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:33 am

MrMorden wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:The last thing I would want to do is perpetuate incorrect information. What information did I put forth that you thought was in accurate?


That class E starts at 1200ft. If you really want to make sure to avoid class E in all areas, you need to be under 700agl.

To be clear, I was tongue in cheek about you pushing wrong information, I have no doubt you know airspace. That is kind of my point; just because somebody uses the term "controlled airspace" to mean towered airport airspace + restricted areas, doesn't mean they don't know the true definition of controlled airspace. They are just using a term of convenience, and I don't feel the need to correct somebody and assume they are dangerously ignorant just because of that shorthand usage.

Again, I know a lot of very experienced aviators, who know far more about flying that I could ever hope to learn in my short lifetime, who "misuse" that term in casual conversation. I'm not about to correct them on it, especially when I know exactly what they are saying.


Andy, I said in most areas class E starts at 1200 AGL. In the lower 48 less than 25% of the class E airspace starts at 700 AGL or below. That means more than 75% starts at 1200 AGL or above. I think 75% would count as most areas.

I don't really care how many people you know who casually misuse the term "controlled airspace". There are a far greater number who don't know that the term is being misused, like the poster who brought the subject up. The misuse of the term only goes to reinforce the misuse of the term for those who don't know better.

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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby FastEddieB » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:23 am

Coincidentally, I just gave a BFR where this came up. The pilot was sure that controlled airspace was that airspace where control was required. He was adamant that he had been taught that and seen it in multiple videos. He was sure that Class E was not controlled airspace. Which is wrong. I showed him multiple sources and he finally came around.

There's so much confusion about airspace, and a key to limiting that confusion is proper definitions. Sure, communication may still occur if both parties have the same misunderstanding. But it's still a misunderstanding.

For most of us the vast majority of our flying is in controlled airspace. For some of us the ability to get questions right on a future written, oral or BFR - depend on a proper understanding of airspace. Plus, it's not hard to imagine poor understanding of airspace leading to a violation.

I plan to make it a topic at our next EAA meeting. In any case, lots of good material online from the AOPA, FAA and others on the topic. At the least a review once a year is a good idea - I know it always refreshes my understanding!
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby Merlinspop » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:28 pm

"Let's avoid having to talk to ATC" would likely be fairly well understood without getting to wound up in definitions.
- Bruce

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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby MrMorden » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:47 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
Andy, I said in most areas class E starts at 1200 AGL. In the lower 48 less than 25% of the class E airspace starts at 700 AGL or below. That means more than 75% starts at 1200 AGL or above. I think 75% would count as most areas.

I don't really care how many people you know who casually misuse the term "controlled airspace". There are a far greater number who don't know that the term is being misused, like the poster who brought the subject up. The misuse of the term only goes to reinforce the misuse of the term for those who don't know better.


Just like "most" controlled airspace is A,B,C, or restricted. Funny you care that you capture all controlled airspace in your terms, but not about capturing all uncontrolled airspace in your terms. A little consistency would be nice here if you are going to argue for accuracy.

Well, you don't care about what I think I know, and I don't care about what you think you know. So we'll call that a wash. All I said that started this shitstorm is that if you use the term "controlled airspace" in the "incorrect" way described in casual conversation, you are unlikely to encounter a pilot who does not understand exactly what you mean. I did not advocate the use of the terminology, I merely commented that you are unlikely to be misunderstood and it's very common.

That caused a crazy amount of hand-wringing and wailing about how wrong I am. I stand by my statements, and I think if you deny that you'd be understood you are being a bit disingenuous. If you want to alienate every pilot or aspiring pilot you meet by correcting their unforgivable sin of misusing a term at any opportunity, be my guest. But then don't have the balls to complain about how general aviation is dying and we can't get anybody interested in flying.

I have a friend who uses the non-word "irregardless" all the time. It's a pet peeve of mine. I know that he really means "regardless" and I don't correct him, because I'd rather keep him as a friend than be an ass just to make sure he uses correct vocabulary that doesn't annoy me. If I was giving him a grammar test, I'd correct him. But he's not my student and I'm not testing him every time we talk.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

TimTaylor
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby TimTaylor » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:59 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
dogugotw wrote:
I'm still training (in Georgia) and I pretty much decided that I'm going to try and hit every un-towered airport in the state. I'll begin with one's I can get to and back on a single tank of fuel and then move out to ones that will require refueling. I might also expand into NC/SC/TN but since that requires going over the mountains (and weather tends to be pretty sucky most days) I'm not committed to them. I don't plan to ever fly into controlled airspace. And hoping to eventually convince my wife to go up with me.


Actually most of your flying will be in controlled airspace. Controlled airspace is defined by a clearance being required for IFR flight. Since a clearance is required for IFR flight in class E airspace it is in fact controlled.

This may have started the shit storm and it wasn't even in response to you.
Last edited by TimTaylor on Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby TimTaylor » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:01 pm

TimTaylor wrote:Some people seem to struggle with what is controlled airspace and what is not. Basically, controlled airspace is everything except class G. Class A requires an IFR clearance and class B requires a clearance. Class C and D require you to talk to someone. Class E you are pretty much on your own, but should communicate at class E and G airports.

Flying in class C and D is no big deal. I suggest everyone get comfortable communicating with ATC (tower, approach, departure).

Or, maybe it was this that was not directed at you. It is an informative post for those who don't understand what is and is not controlled airspace.
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multiengine Land; Instrument Airplane; Sport Endorsement Airplane Single Engine Sea; Flight Instructor Airplane Single And Multiengine; Ground Instructor Advanced Instrument

3Dreaming
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:18 pm

MrMorden wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
Andy, I said in most areas class E starts at 1200 AGL. In the lower 48 less than 25% of the class E airspace starts at 700 AGL or below. That means more than 75% starts at 1200 AGL or above. I think 75% would count as most areas.

I don't really care how many people you know who casually misuse the term "controlled airspace". There are a far greater number who don't know that the term is being misused, like the poster who brought the subject up. The misuse of the term only goes to reinforce the misuse of the term for those who don't know better.


Just like "most" controlled airspace is A,B,C, or restricted. Funny you care that you capture all controlled airspace in your terms, but not about capturing all uncontrolled airspace in your terms. A little consistency would be nice here if you are going to argue for accuracy.


I'm not quite sure what you are talking about here. The whole discussion has been about controlled airspace. The only time in this thread I have mentioned uncontrolled airspace was to say operationally class E and G are the same for a sport pilot. In the USA the only uncontrolled airspace I am aware of is class G

3Dreaming
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:22 pm

TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
dogugotw wrote:
I'm still training (in Georgia) and I pretty much decided that I'm going to try and hit every un-towered airport in the state. I'll begin with one's I can get to and back on a single tank of fuel and then move out to ones that will require refueling. I might also expand into NC/SC/TN but since that requires going over the mountains (and weather tends to be pretty sucky most days) I'm not committed to them. I don't plan to ever fly into controlled airspace. And hoping to eventually convince my wife to go up with me.


Actually most of your flying will be in controlled airspace. Controlled airspace is defined by a clearance being required for IFR flight. Since a clearance is required for IFR flight in class E airspace it is in fact controlled.

This may have started the shit storm and it wasn't even in response to you.


Yep, I started the shit storm, but this was a perfect example of someone who is learning to fly who apparently doesn't understand the airspace system. It is also a perfect example of why misusing the term does a disservice to someone like him.

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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby TimTaylor » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:38 pm

Actually, I think the shit storm started in response to your post, or perhaps my post. Both were simply stating factual information for those who have a misunderstanding about airspace. Neither were controversial or argumentative.
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Nomore767
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby Nomore767 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:41 pm

When you use the term "shit storm" is this casual language for convective activity and extreme precipitation?

I ask because the other day a pilot told me the weather was mostly pretty good although there was some 'shit over the mountains'. The use of 'shit storm' is now beginning to make sense.

Thanks.

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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby Wm.Ince » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:00 pm

Nomore767 wrote:When you use the term "shit storm" is this casual language for convective activity and extreme precipitation?
I ask because the other day a pilot told me the weather was mostly pretty good although there was some 'shit over the mountains'. The use of 'shit storm' is now beginning to make sense.

By far, the best post of this entire thread. :D
The lesson . . . "Don't take yourself so seriously."
Bill Ince
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3Dreaming
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Re: Got your license... now what?

Postby 3Dreaming » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:05 pm

Nomore767 wrote:When you use the term "shit storm" is this casual language for convective activity and extreme precipitation?

I ask because the other day a pilot told me the weather was mostly pretty good although there was some 'shit over the mountains'. The use of 'shit storm' is now beginning to make sense.

Thanks.


Your post made me smile.


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