Actual aircraft issue during training flight

[foresterpoole]

Just got back to my house and had to share this experience. Right now I'm still processing, but I think I now know first hand what a real owe shit face on my CFI looks like. Took a few days off work to try to put some hours in, this morning looked good, did the preflight, checked fluid levels, noted that we had about 1\2 tank in one wing tank and a little under in the other, double checked and sticked both tanks per checklist. I mentioned this to the CFI and he said that should be plenty for our hour or hour and a half flight. We took off without issue, clearing turns, I performed slow flight, then on to power off stalls (having a few issues with those, but ive only tried 3, I keep dropping a wing), after another stall attempt he mentioned he wanted to balance the tanks, never saw him do anything, but more on that in a few minutes. I was still having issues with stalls, but decided to give it a rest and I performed some s turns and turns around a point which he felt I had a good handle on. By that time it was an hour in and time to head back. Got it trimmed out and was cruising at 1600' around 90 knots for 5 minutes when the engine started running rough and a second later died. So my initial reaction was disbelief as I watched the tachometer drop and the airframe shudder. The engine spun up for a second then died again. I glanced over and the look on his face was "what did you do". Under normal circumstances i'd assume this was a test, but the expedience with which he said " my controls" made me think twice about that assumption. With controls in his hands I started looking at gauges. Oil pressure normal, temp normal, no fuel pressure! He hit the electric fuel pump about the time i noticed it, Nada still no pressure. So it's got to be fuel, meanwhile, he's working the throttle trying to get some life from the Rotax. He looks over and says "I think we are out of fuel!". My reply was i think " OooK" I sticked the tanks, I know we should have fuel, gauge reads 1\4, cant see the other, then I glanced over and saw the starboard fuel valve was off, I just said " fuel valve" that was enough, switched that on and everything comes back to life. It probably took 2-3 minutes, it felt like eternity. Afterwards, nurves completely shot I made a really crappy landing, he had to give some corrections on and forgot to drop the flaps to 30 degrees from 15 degrees.

Do you think this was a test, or did he just forget he had a valve off? I've got a few hours in, but if that was his idea of a test, I think it was pretty shitty. Obviously everything is OK, and it was a hell of an adrenaline rush, but man. I'm going up tomorrow for another 2-3 hours, I can only imagine what tomorrow will bring...

[rcpilot]

I would agree with it not being intentional. My instructor has me practice engine out a lot and never has he turned the engine off, just pulls power to idle. We've never gone up with less than 3/4 fuel. And yes the standard procedure with engine out(after setting glide speed and looking for a place to land)is to attempt engine restart, fuel set to opposite tank, pump and carb heat on.

[foresterpoole]

I kind of figured it was not normal, but I have heard stories about CFIs that turned off fuel, or did something to put the student through the paces in emergency procedures.

After we landed, we pulled up to the fuel pump. Stuck both tanks, One tank was dry, the other had 5.5 gallons. I guess it was an excellent learning experience, I feel more confident in being able to stay calm and work through a problem...

[3Dreaming]

I would hit mixture, fuel pump, switch tank, while I am establishing glide speed and starting to look for a place to land. You can do those first 3 in a second or two and maybe get the engine going again almost immediately.

Rotax engines typically don't have mixture controls. My Flight Design doesn't have a fuel pump to turn on ot tank to switch to either.

[3Dreaming]

To the original question, I don't think it was intentional. If it was intentional it was a reckless move on the instructors part. That being said the fact that the instructor shut the valve off and forgot about it seems a little careless.

[3Dreaming]

I would hit mixture, fuel pump, switch tank, while I am establishing glide speed and starting to look for a place to land. You can do those first 3 in a second or two and maybe get the engine going again almost immediately.

Rotax engines typically don't have mixture controls. My Flight Design doesn't have a fuel pump to turn on ot tank to switch to either.

There are some airplanes that don't have Rotax engines. I have no idea what the OP is flying.

When I read his post I paid enough attention to know he said it had a Rotax engine.

[foresterpoole]

It is a Tecnam P92, so yes Rotax 4 cylinder, no mixture, and the tanks were both on when we took off, it's on the pre-start, run-up and take off checklists same as on a Cessna 172. The difference is that the valves are located on the sides of the windshield braces, the Cessna I flew had the one selector on the center...

[MrMorden]

This definitely looks like a mistake on the part of the instructor. He shut off the fuel from one of the tanks, forgot about it, and rant the other tank dry. He's only human, these things happen. Just be glad it happened in cruise and not in the pattern or while doing stalls. The problem got quickly diagnosed and resolved, so it had a good outcome.

The P92 is a great airplane, I did my training in one. But the multiple fuel valves can cause issues like this. This kind of thing is precisely the reason that Flight Design resisted adding a left/right valve on the CT models for years; there is only a simple on/off valve that feeds from both tanks. That has its own problem, since to balance fuel flow if one tank drains faster means flying with one wing high (slipping) to cause higher head pressure from the high tank. Neither setup is really better, you just have to know your fuel system. It sounds like you did, and helped get the mill turning again quickly.

[foresterpoole]

Had a good laugh about it this morning and then we walked through what he was doing and why, basic emergency checklists, and made it a learning experience. Now if I can just get the wind to die down, this morning it was 5-15 so we flew and I practiced crosswind takeoffs, I got those OK, those Cross wind landings are another story, talk about nerve racking!!!

[HAPPYDAN]

I'd be willing to bet that will never happen to you again. All's well that ends well. Socrates said "Experience, not always the kindest teacher, is by far the most effective."

[foresterpoole]

^^^ Amen to that!!!

[MrMorden]

IMHO, the lessons to be learned from this experience are to always fuel your airplane to max allowable gross weight before takeoff and use a good checklist for each phase of flight.

Hmm...I don't know if I'd go that far. This was a case of fuel mismanagement, not inadequate fuel. There can be some really good reasons not to use max fuel on every flight. I am very conservative with fuel, but rarely feel the need to haul around 34 gallons for a typical hour flight. Plus I fly into some pretty short and rough grass strips, where lower weight equals slower landings and less punishment on the gear.

I'd say always carry significantly more fuel that you can foresee needing, but not necessarily always max fuel. I do have a "no takeoff" level of five gallons per tank, so I never depart with less than ten gallons, about two hours of flying, even for pattern work. If I'm leaving the pattern I like to have at least 15 gallons.

[Wm.Ince]

Good discussion.
That withstanding, there is a difference between "max allowable gross weight" and max allowable fuel. Seems there may be a little confusion there.

[3Dreaming]

There are exceptions to everything. If your plane has huge fuel capacity, that might be one. There could be others. If they had filled the tanks OR used a checklist, this would have been prevented. I also think getting to 5 gallons is too low. Why do that? I am a conservative pilot. That's one reason I have never had an issue in 53 years of flying. I rarely get below 1/2 tanks in the SkyCatcher. That's 6 gallons each side and 2 hours of flying.

The OP stated he was using a checklist. Fuel was checked prior to flight and determined to be more than adequate for the flight. I don't know the specifics of the checklist for that airplane, but it sounds like this happened in between times where the checklist would have been used. In addition the instructor turned the valve off without specifically telling the student, after it had been checked by the student using the checklist and determined to be in the on position, and prior to using the checklist for landing where it would have been checked again.

[FastEddieB]

I'm with Andy.

Of course, one should always plan enough fuel to make a flight with adequate reserves, and always err on the side of caution. One of the three most useless things to a pilot is the fuel he or she did NOT put in the tank(s).

But...

Every extra pound of fuel beyond what's needed has adverse effects on runway required, climb rate and angle, stall speed and even cruise speed. For all those reasons, "tankering" excess fuel is inefficient and commercial operations try to minimize it.

There's no right and wrong for our typical missions. But "maximum fuel all the time" is not the only rational choice.