This is getting frustrating....

[Half Fast]

Working on nothing but landings now, and still not getting it. By the end of the lesson Friday, I was getting close. Saturday I worked on them again at Leesburg (KLEE), and by the end I was doing all right. Made the last 4 landings without assistance and they were okay, so I thought I was closing in on it.

Then today it mostly went to crap again. I can get us set up on final okay, put us low over the numbers at the right airspeed, but as I enter ground effect and start to round out it gets squirrely. I'm not even sure what's causing me problems. Mostly I think I'm overcorrecting, but I'm just not sure.

I'll keep swatting at it, but dammit I should be getting this by now. All suggestions welcome (short of suggesting I stick to flying commercial).

[FastEddieB]

Where are you looking in the flare?

[Half Fast]

As I enter ground effect, I shift my eyes to look down the length of the runway. I think part of the problem is that I'm starting the round out too early.

[3Dreaming]

If you think you are over controlling, you most likely are. The other problem area I see is the death grip. Students can be completely relaxed for the pattern only to tighten their grip during the landing. The problem is compounded when you are trying extra hard to get it. Most all of the LSA aircraft I have flown require a soft touch.

From a racing stand point it is like the guy who is leading that starts relax because he is ahead only to have faster times, compared to t he guy who is in second who is pushing harder to only have slower lap times.

I had a student one time who flew the most beautiful patterns only to get crooked and squirrely when he transitioned to the landing. Using a suggestion from another instructor we laced a pencil between his fingers so he couldn't squeeze the control without it hurting. He loosened the grip and started making nice landings.

I teach in a Flight Design CT. It has a fair amount of adverse yaw, that is amplified when slow with the flaps down. With it any side to side movement of the stick that is not coordinated with the rudder causes things to get ugly. I tell students that a quiet stick makes for a happy airplane.

[3Dreaming]

As I enter ground effect, I shift my eyes to look down the length of the runway. I think part of the problem is that I'm starting the round out too early.

Rounding out to high will cause you to get slow and drop it in, but shouldn't cause it to get squirrely.

[Half Fast]

Rounding out to high will cause you to get slow and drop it in, but shouldn't cause it to get squirrely.

Well, that's part of the problem. Rounding out too high and/or too much.

But that's not all of it.

I think I'm screwing up when I cross-control. As I got over the numbers today, I was crabbing into a crosswind, and when I tried to use the rudder to take the crab out at the end things would get squirrely. I think I'm over-correcting at that point, and I also think I'm doing it too early. The plane is still flying in ground effect, so when I take the crab out it drifts off centerline, which I try to correct with aileron, and it all goes to pot.

[FastEddieB]

As I enter ground effect, I shift my eyes to look down the length of the runway.

If I were troubleshooting this, I would suspect that is your problem.

I have probably posted this before, but an article I wrote for the Cirrus Owner's mag:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yj9oez6gk40jk ... k.pdf?dl=0

And the FAA take:

[3Dreaming]

Learning where to start the round out comes from practice. Every landing adds to your mental database. Some thing to remember is unless you are rounding out very close to the ground is that it shouldn't be rushed.

One other thing, is the transition from the crab to being lined up. While many pilots do it in the landing flare it is perfectly fine to make the transition on short final. If you are aligned with the runway before you get there all you have to worry about the round out and flare.

[saxdiva]

I split my flying time between a Flight Design CT and an Aeronca Chief, so I tend to take the taildragger approach to crosswind landings: keep the nose pointed straight and the windward wing low until the roundout, and then (when I'm in the CT), do a two-fingered flare and keep my feet alive on the rudders as I would in the Chief. The light, active touch on the controls is super-important, though... ALL of these airplanes will require it. You'll need to make quick, light adjustments, keep your feet active, and be patient. Part is understanding, but the other part is muscle memory. You might not have as much say-so in how fast you progress as you'd like, but that doesn't make you a bad pilot... just human. Join the club.

Also, if you're doing crosswind landings it's going to take time. You didn't say how many hours you have, but I've got my SP cert, about 150 TT, and I'm *still* another 10-20 hours away from my tailwheel endorsement... in my own airplane, and at least 30 of my hours were logged in it. You'll get there when you get there...beating yourself up won't make it go any faster. I flew to a new airport today and had to do two go-arounds before I could land. Woo, me.

Prepare. Chair fly. But don't forget that dreams are supposed to come with enjoyable payoffs, and if you drive yourself nuts, you're cheating yourself out of the best part.

-Leanne

[FastEddieB]

Crosswind landings are similar to juggling 3 balls.

Ball 1: The normal roundout and flare to arrive at the ground at the right speed and attitude.

Ball 2: Using rudder to keep the longitudinal axis of the plane aligned with the runway centerline.

Ball 3: Using aileron to compensate for drift and keep the plane on the centerline.

Each by itself is pretty straightforward. But each of the 3 has effects on the other two, so the entire process has to be fairly fluid.

If you've not done a side slip drill over the runway, see if you instructor is game. It may help cement the relationship of 2 and 3. As shown here:

https://youtu.be/D4gnd_gF9F4

Finally, to roughly paraphrase "A League of Their Own".

"Crosswind landings are hard. Of course they're hard. It's the hard that make them great. If they were easy, then anyone could do them!"

[FastEddieB]

Ed,

As an aside, about a month from now I'm likely to have my CFI back. If all goes well headed to Hollywood, FL for a recertification ride in mid-August.

Not meaning to poach - I'm not actively looking for students. And I can't instruct in the Sky Arrow due to its Experimental status. But if you happen to be back in N GA, maybe an hour or so just flying together for fun like last time might help cement some of the concepts I'm trying to get across.

Plus we can ride! I need to get one of the little scoots out for exercise!

Let me know.

[Half Fast]

Thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions, everyone.

Eddie, for some reason I can't access the dropbox to get to the pdf. I've read the other material, though.

Reading about landing, though, is akin to reading about sport bike corner entry:

For a right-hand corner, position the motorcycle near, but still to the right, of the lane centerline. Select a braking point appropriate for the present speed and the anticipated cornering speed. When the braking point is reached, smoothly roll off the throttle and apply the front brake with the right hand, while simultaneously looking through the corner to judge the appropriate turn-in and apex points as well as to assess the correct gear for corner exit. As the speed falls toward the maximum speed for the intended gear, draw in the clutch with the left hand while maintaining braking with the right. Still maintaining braking, blip the throttle with the right hand to set the engine speed for the intended gear, then make the shift with the left foot and smoothly release the clutch.

As the selected corner entry point is reached, weight the right foot peg and shift your body weight off the seat and to the right, simultaneously pushing on the right handgrip to begin the lean, while simultaneously and gradually releasing the front brake as the cornering forces build. Thinking of the traction circle, this will transition the front tire loading from braking forces to turning forces, but it must not be done abruptly. Lean the bike to an appropriate angle to reach the selected apex point on the inside (right) edge of the pavement, and shift your gaze to the exit of the turn. If, at this point, you sense the need to tighten the turning radius slightly, a small amount of rear brake may be added using the right foot, but use caution - if the rear tire is near its traction limit due to cornering forces, very little braking effect is available prior to lock-up and a skid in this condition may cause a fall.

...and so forth. Give that to a new rider and ask him to take a spirited run on the Chero or the Dragon. That's about how all the reading is hitting me at the moment.

Your ball-juggling analogy is a good start, but it feels more like juggling flaming chainsaws while dancing a waltz and trying to whistle something in 4/4 time, all at once.

Great news about your CFI! Are you flying the Arrow down to Hollywood? If so, maybe we can get in a flight or two down here. I don't think I'll be back to the mountains before the fall.

[Half Fast]

BTW, I'm having trouble with Ball 2 - when my CFI says the longitudinal axis is aligned to the centerline, my vision tells me we're still crabbing. I'm having trouble getting things lined up right.

I made 4 good landings on Saturday, but the wind was almost straight down the runway. With crosswinds on Sunday, I sucked.

[FastEddieB]

Try this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yj9oez6gk40jk ... k.pdf?dl=0

It's in my "Public" folder, so it should work.

Here's the text:

WHERE TO LOOK ON LANDING

Where should you look while landing a Cirrus? If your landings are consistent and you can accurately judge your height above the runway during the roundout and flare, just keep looking where you’re looking. If they could be better, read on.

As a flight instructor, I’m occasionally called upon to “troubleshoot” when a pilot is suffering inconsistent landings. Of course, in primary training the subject of where to look when landing always comes up.

WHERE NOT TO LOOK

I’ve had some pilots, including at least one flight instructor, advise that the pilot should gradually shift his view to the far end of the runway during the flare. I can think of two good reasons why this is not a good idea.

First, the far end of the runway is going to be at least a half mile away, and may literally be miles away. When looking at a point that distant, the angles involved in judging a foot or two of altitude are simply too small. Take a look at these two examples:



These were taken just past the numbers on runway 2 at Copperhill, TN (1A3), a 3,500’ runway. The photo on the left was taken with the camera roughly at eye height in a Cirrus. I climbed a ladder to take the photo on the right. (I “Photoshopped” a panel into the photos to make them more realistic.)

Can you tell, looking at the far end of the runway, how far up the ladder I was? One foot? Two feet? Ten feet?

Well, I was about five feet up the ladder in the second photo. I think it’s clear the visual information available looking at the far end of the runway makes accurate height judgment extremely difficult.

Second, in many airplanes you will simply not be able to see the far end of the runway in the landing attitude. Our planes are blessed with above–average visibility, but in a slow enough landing even a pilot of average stature at some point may see something like this (a real photo of a “full-stall” landing in an SR22):



OK, SO WHERE DO I LOOK?

To accurately judge height, we need to pull our vision closer to the plane, while simultaneously diverting it toward the runway edge. Exactly how far ahead depends on the plane’s speed, but I encourage my students to look 30 to 50 feet ahead of the plane, more or less at the runway edge.

Note: A study performed by engineering students associated with the University of Michigan Flyers in the early 1970s in which a device that measured eye movement was placed on the heads of pilots who were making good landings agreed with the recommendations of this article. At that time a lot of instructors were stressing that the student should look well down the runway in the flare. When those same instructors wore the device that measured their eye movements and where they were looking, it was found that they focused near the left edge of the runway, about 200 feet ahead of the airplane.

Why not closer? Closer might work better, but for the fact that the ground becomes blurred.

Flight instructors sometimes note that their student’s night landings are better and more consistent than their daytime landings. The common explanation for this is the student’s vision is being pulled closer to the plane by the landing light – usually (and not coincidentally) right about where they should be looking in the first place!

One word of caution if you go out and practice looking ahead and to the side.: our bodies tend to follow our eyes. If shifting your view to the left runway edge is new to you, you may find the nose of the plane being “pulled” that way. It’s subtle, and once you’re aware of it, it should be easy to compensate for.

Now, go have some fun!

[designrs]

we laced a pencil between his fingers so he couldn't squeeze the control without it hurting. He loosened the grip and started making nice landings.

Quite non-traditional... or is that old school tradition?