At least we can re-use the plane....

[Cluemeister]

It will take practice. I got lots of advice during this part, and it was all probably correct, but I couldn't turn it into results. So try not to get frustrated.

Truth is it's hard to get good at applying rudder at slow speeds to keep the nose straight while using ailerons to keep centered.

Even though they are much improved, I am still not happy with my landings, so my new instructor has got me going back to proper set up in the pattern.

Talked with another student a few days ago, and I mentioned how hard it was to get good at landings. She said I"ve got no problem with my landings, they're great. My radio work is terrible."

I thought, man I wish my radio was my weak spot!

[rcpilot]

Well, see if your CFI will do what mine did. He had me fly over the runway in ground effect just practicing keeping the plane centered. It helped a lot.

[3Dreaming]

Ok here is a little instructor thought for all you students who are having a problem with landings. Be patient! For most everything you need to learn to fly an airplane you can practice for hours on end, except landings. Landings are the hardest thing to learn in a airplane, and the time spent practicing them is so little. The critical phase of landing is the round out, flair, and touchdown. All other parts of the pattern can be grouped into the stuff you can practice for hours at a time, but the critical phase of landings only gets 20-30 seconds per landing. Based on that a normal lesson will only yield 3-5 minutes of actual landing practice, and it will take at least 120-180 landings to get an hours worth of practice. I would bet based on that most of you don't even have an hours worth of landing practice under your belt yet. Make the best of your time in the airplane. Develop a mental picture of the procedure your instructor has taught you. Now sit in the easy chair at night close your eyes and visualize the landings. Use your mind as a simulator. Think about the control inputs needed for a normal landing. Now add in a crosswind, and think that through. I know it sounds silly, but this will help with your landings. The plus side is that it doesn't cost anything.

[FastEddieB]

There's a thread on COPA about common errors in the pattern.

I posted the following to it, and I hope it helps.


"I like my students to imagine a "keyhole" or "window" on short final that they fly through, at roughly 50' or so, in a position from which they could easily glide to the runway power off. Their goal is to arrive at that point with full flaps, at about 1.3 Vso and at or very close to idle - if not quite at idle already, there should be very little power left in at that point to smoothly bring back to idle along with a small pitch reduction to maintain airspeed.

A note on the above. They say "The past is prologue", which I think in pilot-speak would be, "The secret to a good landing is a good approach". Let me take a slightly contrarian view. If a pilot can arrive at the right point in space at the right speed and the right power setting, I think a little "selective amnesia" can be a good thing. By that I mean that whether he or she got there from a standard pattern with all the speeds and power settings "just so", or from a 10 mile straight-in, or following a power failure, or after being too high and having to slip like a maniac to get down, once at the right point at the right speed with the power near idle, none of what came before really matters one whit. Fuggedaboutit and just proceed from there. But as always, if at that point one feels rushed or at all out of sorts, go around and try for a more stabilized approach the next time.

I have always broken the actual landing into two phases, the roundout and the flare. It's been pointed out to me that the FAA uses them interchangeably, but I think there's value in using them as separate phases and I'll continue to do so. The roundout begins at roughly one wingspan above the surface, so I would begin it right after descending through the 50' "window". Not coincidentally, that's about where ground effect begins. My goal is to smoothly "round out" the descent angle so as to level off maybe 1' or so above the runway, entering what I refer to as the actual flare. If done right, my guess is that roundout takes you from 1.3 Vso to about 1.1 Vso. In a Cirrus that stalls at 60 kts, from about 78kts to about 66 kts. Arriving 1' over the runway, a pilot will only have roughly 6 kts to bleed off to a "full stall" landing, which should really only take a few runway stripes, or a few hundred feet, to accomplish.

And yet, as Caitlin points out, the flare or "hold it off" phase can seem quite prolonged, even at the right speed. Even if only 4 to 6 seconds, it should never feel rushed. "Takes the time..." as she puts it.

Anyway, that process and mental imagery seems to have worked for my students, and its how I continue to fly as well."

[Half Fast]

This morning's lesson was much better. I'm not there yet, and I still have a loooong way to go, but it's getting better.

My usual CFI is out of town for the holiday so I had a new instructor this morning. She was very observant and therefore very helpful. After my first T&G she said, "Okay, I see part of the problem and when I tell you how simple it is you'll laugh."

I fly with my left hand on the stick, and it seems I was resting my left elbow and mostly using my wrist. Consequently, whenever I pulled back on the stick using my wrist, I also pulled it left. Picking up my arm and focusing on a straight pull made a big difference.

Next she told me to loosen the "death grip" on the stick. The next time around I lifted my elbow and also used just my fingertips on the stick. HUGE difference.

I still need tons of work, but at least it's getting better.

[Cluemeister]

Just needed a new pair of eyes to see things!

Congratulations!

[Half Fast]

Only got one session this weekend (planes all rented out on Sunday), but flew for two hours. Still having a rough time with landings. I'm getting us to the runway fairly well centered and at the correct speed, but it all goes to crap as I start the round out.

At my CFI's suggestion, I'm going up with a different instructor Friday morning to see if he can get me over this. I sure hope so, as I'm starting to get rather frustrated with myself.

[HAPPYDAN]

Only got one session this weekend (planes all rented out on Sunday), but flew for two hours. Still having a rough time with landings. I'm getting us to the runway fairly well centered and at the correct speed, but it all goes to crap as I start the round out.

Sounds like we're in the same boat! One time it's a greaser, next time it's "Holy Crap!" I'm not going to blame outside sources, that's just coy. But I have found that my best landings occur after a slow flight or MCA session. I fly a Skycatcher, and some say (here it comes!) it's a difficult plane to land compared to a 152 or 172. I have learned that "bumping" the controls gently and trimming helps with stability. Otherwise, it can get a mind of it's own, and I can quickly get behind the plane due to over-controlling. I wish I had some magic words to make it work, but I don't. I guess it's like they say - just keep trying and one day it will click.

P.S. I think the Skycatcher may hold the record for collapsed nose gears and busted front tires! Out of three I've flown, there were 3 collapsed nose gears and 6 busted tires total .

[Merlinspop]

P.S. I think the Skycatcher may hold the record for collapsed nose gears and busted front tires! Out of three I've flown, there were 3 collapsed nose gears and 6 busted tires total .

You may wanna clarify that... reads a little like those gear and tire events happened to YOU, not merely in the planes' collective histories.

[drseti]

My CFI suggested that I try scheduling a single 3-hour block in the mornings, rather than a morning 2-hour plus an afternoon 2-hour.

That's my standard arrangement. Students commit to two 3-hour blocks per week, which seems to be the sweet spot for trading off between retention and exhaustion.

[drseti]

I fly a Skycatcher, and some say (here it comes!) it's a difficult plane to land compared to a 152 or 172.

<snip>

P.S. I think the Skycatcher may hold the record for collapsed nose gears and busted front tires! Out of three I've flown, there were 3 collapsed nose gears and 6 busted tires total .

The issue, IMHO, is that most of the SkyCatchers were sold to Cessna Pilot Centers (in fact, at one point each CPC was required to buy one to retain their affiliation - interesting sales model!) So, all the instructors were used to teaching in 152s and 172s, which are a completely different animal - and they tended to teach their students to fly 162s the same way. Hence, lots of nose wheel strikes...

[HAPPYDAN]

P.S. I think the Skycatcher may hold the record for collapsed nose gears and busted front tires! Out of three I've flown, there were 3 collapsed nose gears and 6 busted tires total .

You may wanna clarify that... reads a little like those gear and tire events happened to YOU, not merely in the planes' collective histories.

Thanks! I bought one tire and tube, as did two others at the same school. A local club has one that claims nose gear, prop strike and tire/tube, but still flies OK. On an out of state vacation, I bought a ride with a CFI at a local school who confided that twice hard landings by students resulted in collapsed nose gear, prop strike and tire/tube. My opinion? Skycatcher is one tough little bird!

[drseti]

My opinion? Skycatcher is one tough little bird!

Don't you mean one tough little bird to land?

[Half Fast]

That's my standard arrangement. Students commit to two 3-hour blocks per week, which seems to be the sweet spot for trading off between retention and exhaustion.

I'm going to try doing that for some morning sessions. The July Florida heat makes it a bit much in the afternoons, or else we get afternoon thunderstorms that knock out afternoon lessons altogether.

[HAPPYDAN]

I fly a Skycatcher, and some say (here it comes!) it's a difficult plane to land compared to a 152 or 172.

<snip>

P.S. I think the Skycatcher may hold the record for collapsed nose gears and busted front tires! Out of three I've flown, there were 3 collapsed nose gears and 6 busted tires total .

The issue, IMHO, is that most of the SkyCatchers were sold to Cessna Pilot Centers (in fact, at one point each CPC was required to buy one to retain their affiliation - interesting sales model!) So, all the instructors were used to teaching in 152s and 172s, which are a completely different animal - and they tended to teach their students to fly 162s the same way. Hence, lots of nose wheel strikes...

Yep. And here's yet another example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yClNQ8jwgq8