My week of flight training - Review of events

[drseti]

I wonder if he should file a NASA form for all his solo cross-country flights or is it too late for that?

There are two possible reasons to file a NASA ASRS report, a "selfish" one and an "altruistic" one. The former is to gain limited immunity in the event of an enforcement action, and that one needs to be filed within (I believe) 48 hours of the incident or infraction -- so, yes, it's probably too late. But the other reason for filing (and I consider it a better one) is to help other folks avoid making the same mistake. It is never too late to do that!

[Cluemeister]

With all due respect, I'll handle a course of action.

[3Dreaming]

With all due respect, I'll handle a course of action.

As you should. Don't be mad at us for something your instructor made a mistake on. Eyefly, the DR, and myself all have quite a bit of experience in flight instruction. It is based on that experience that we are making suggestions on how you should fix it. It needs to be done before it becomes an issue on your checkride, and trust me you don't want it to be an issue on your checkride. We truly do have your best interest at heart.

[3Dreaming]

While I don't agree that a student pilot should need it because they are signed off for the make and model aircraft they are flying, make sure you have the greater than 87kts Vh endorsement.

[Cluemeister]

My specific purpose creating this thread was to share my training experiences and recollections with other potential sport pilots. I was hoping to provide an accurate picture of what's involved in getting a sport pilot certificate.

Although I'm happy to receive feedback, I don't post here hoping to receive additional critique from CFI's or ex CFI's. I already have a CFI. Any concerns you have about my training, especially if you think I might have missed something important, can be handled discreetly via a private message.

I no longer enjoy posting about my training, and will not post further updates.

[drseti]

Clue, your posts here have been a valuable resource, providing those of us in the flight training industry (as well as potential future sport pilots) with much-needed insights into what the student perceives and experiences throughout the process. I greatly appreciate your starting the thread.

As for providing feedback via PM, I could have done that, but I realized that if you couldn't find the FAR regarding instrument training prior to solo XC, others also probably couldn't, so posting the reference publicly would provide a service to others. Absolutely no criticism of yourself or your instructor was intended - 14 CFR is complicated, convoluted, and not well indexed.

I hope you'll continue with your excellent contributions to Sport Pilot Talk. Good luck with the rest of your journey - I'm sure you'll make a safe and skilled pilot.

[FastEddieB]

What the Professor said!

If this discussion has prompted anyone to go back and review the training requirements for student crosscountries, it's been a net good thing as a result of its public nature.

If I had a student point out a requirement like this that I may have forgotten or neglected, I'd be grateful. Better to catch it early than to maybe get a pink slip down the line - not the end of the world, but something I'd think most students and instructors woukd just as soon avoid.

Or worse, to have a student stumble into IMC on a crosscountry and have zero tools to have any chance of surviving. THAT is the biggest fear, I'd think!

[3Dreaming]

My specific purpose creating this thread was to share my training experiences and recollections with other potential sport pilots. I was hoping to provide an accurate picture of what's involved in getting a sport pilot certificate.

Although I'm happy to receive feedback, I don't post here hoping to receive additional critique from CFI's or ex CFI's. I already have a CFI. Any concerns you have about my training, especially if you think I might have missed something important, can be handled discreetly via a private message.

I no longer enjoy posting about my training, and will not post further updates.

Clue, I hope you reconsider. I know the reason I posted was in line with the reason you created this thread, to help other potential sport pilot students. It was in no way intended to be a critique of your abilities. I will say it again, it is not your fault that this was missed.

[HAPPYDAN]

Very informative series of posts regarding IMC training endorsements. I have reviewed around a half a dozen checkride posts regarding the sport pilot license, and nowhere was any mention made of this requirement. I even have a copy of a Sport Pilot Training syllabus, nada regarding aforementioned endorsements. Obviously, you know what you're talking about, and it's just possible these requirements have been largely overlooked. One exception: I have a good video from King Schools, "Flying The Skycatcher". There is a segment by Martha demonstrating actions to take upon inadvertent flight into IMC. Regardless, it's a good idea and certainly can't help but make a better pilot.

Edit: Just saw your post, Clue, and I beg you to reconsider. An old CSM from my days in the 82ND, (Rock Merritt), once said, "Anything you learn can't hurt you. It's what you do next that makes the difference." Please regard this as a learning experience, and rise above.

[3Dreaming]

Very informative series of posts regarding IMC training endorsements. I have reviewed around a half a dozen checkride posts regarding the sport pilot license, and nowhere was any mention made of this requirement. I even have a copy of a Sport Pilot Training syllabus, nada regarding aforementioned endorsements. Obviously, you know what you're talking about, and it's just possible these requirements have been largely overlooked. One exception: I have a good video from King Schools, "Flying The Skycatcher". There is a segment by Martha demonstrating actions to take upon inadvertent flight into IMC. Regardless, it's a good idea and certainly can't help but make a better pilot.

Edit: Just saw your post, Clue, and I beg you to reconsider. An old CSM from my days in the 82ND, (Rock Merritt), once said, "Anything you learn can't hurt you. It's what you do next that makes the difference." Please regard this as a learning experience, and rise above.

I will go on record that I don't agree with Paul that the instrument training requires an endorsement, only that it needs to be done and logged.
You will not see anything about it on the checkride videos, because it is not a sport pilot endorsement, but rather required training prior to solo cross country if you are flying an airplane with a Vh of greater than 87kts. If you train in a airplane with a Vh of less than 87kts you are not required to have the training. If you then as a sport pilot add the greater than 87kt endorsement it is not required training, but it would still be a good idea to do it. If you are training for private pilot it is required training prior to solo cross country regardless of the speed of the airplane, and whether is a LSA or not.

[drseti]

I will go on record that I don't agree with Paul that the instrument training requires an endorsement, only that it needs to be done and logged.

I misspoke, and stand corrected. I should have said logbook entry, not endorsement.

[Parker]

I have appreciated Cluemeister (and other's) posting their flight training experience, and I hope it will continue.

I am also interested in the discussion of IFR training. I flew with 3 CFI's during my sportpilot training and there was never a word about any IFR experience. It didn't come up with the examiner during the orals or check ride either. I fly and fish with another CFI and I have mentioned to him that I would like to have some under the hood experience, and he didn't register any surprise that it didn't happen during my training.

So what do I make of it: misinformed CFI's; different interpretation of the requirements; or it is just to damn hot and the gnats are out, so let's not bother?

[FastEddieB]

... misinformed CFI's...

Since the regs are pretty clear, that would seem to nail it.

[3Dreaming]

I have appreciated Cluemeister (and other's) posting their flight training experience, and I hope it will continue.

I am also interested in the discussion of IFR training. I flew with 3 CFI's during my sportpilot training and there was never a word about any IFR experience. It didn't come up with the examiner during the orals or check ride either. I fly and fish with another CFI and I have mentioned to him that I would like to have some under the hood experience, and he didn't register any surprise that it didn't happen during my training.

So what do I make of it: misinformed CFI's; different interpretation of the requirements; or it is just to damn hot and the gnats are out, so let's not bother?

That is a good question. First off it is not a requirement for all sport pilot students, it only applies to those doing their solo cross country in a airplane with a Vh of greater than 87kts, and the requirement is buried in the student pilot regulations. In addition the requirement wasn't clarified in the regulations until 2010. Up until that time the student pilot regulations were ignored, because a sport pilot didn't require any instrument training. Since the requirement is buried in the student pilot regulations it is easy to miss, because the instructors and students are simply look at the required elements for the rating. It can be an issue for a private pilot as well. The instructor knows that the student will need 3 hours of instrument training, but fails to comply with the student pilot requirement that some of it be given prior to solo cross country.

IMO, there are far to many instructors who are trying to teach sport pilots that simply do not know all the requirements as well as they should. This especially applies to the special student pilot requirements specifically for sport pilots.

[3Dreaming]

I want to expand on instructors not keeping up with the regulations related to sport pilots. Flight instructor certificates are only good for 2 years. To be able to renew you certificate it requires 16 hours of recurrent training. There are a couple ways to get around it, but most instructors just do the training, because it is the simple way to keep current and up to date on rule changes.

In January 2014 I went to a flight instructor renewal clinic. It was a large clinic sponsored a local flight instructors group and the local FSDO. One of the presenters was the chief flight instructor from a school that provided sport pilot training. Now most of the instructors in the room were not familiar with sport pilot at all, and I doubt most really did any significant flight instruction at all. Anyway there was a good portion of his presentation that was incorrect. There had been a change in the rules that he was not aware of. The bad thing is the change had happened almost 4 years prior. When I confronted him about the information his response was to argue with me about it. My comments were enough that he did go and look it up only to find out I was correct. He did acknowledge that his information was wrong, and commented that he needed to talk with his examiner because he was doing it wrong too. The big issue was that this was not the only time he had made his presentation since the rule had changed. That left about 400 instructors within a small region that all been taught the incorrect information. That means there were 400 instructors who could have been teaching it wrong to their students.

As an aside at the same instructor clinic I was sitting next to a friend, when the FAA inspector came up and told him his new certificate would have a different expiration date. The clinic was being held in January, and his certificate expired at the end of April. I knew the FAA inspector was wrong. I looked up the regulation, then showed and explained to him that he was incorrect. He stipulated that he was thinking about it the wrong way, and that my friend would keep his April expiration date.