Sport Pilot or Private Pilot?

[MrMorden]

Andy, I have seen averages of 35 hours for sport pilot in a Flight Design CT, and this includes the cross country training.

I think I could train a recreational pilot in the 30 hour minimum in my Piper warrior including the cross country training.

While the FAA required training is more I think the cost of training can be less.

It's surely possible. I got my SP in 39.5 hours, and that included an instructor, school, and aircraft type change in the middle! I have no doubt a pilot with no delays and who learned quickly could do exactly what you describe.

My only point is that if you are assuming both types of training are the most efficient they could be, the endorsement for cross country flying does have to be taken into account as "additional" training for the Rec. Pilot.

[3Dreaming]

Yes it is additional required training. What I am trying to say is that because of using a simpler to fly airplane you can do the required training and the additional cross country training in less flight time than the required training for a sport pilot in the typical LSA. I think the difference in airplanes even enough to make up for the additional 10 hours of required solo flight time.

[dstclair]

My only point is that if you are assuming both types of training are the most efficient they could be, the endorsement for cross country flying does have to be taken into account as "additional" training for the Rec. Pilot.

The recreational pilot certificate requires a minimum of 2 hrs of cross-country training to an airport at least 25 miles away. In order to fly to airport more than 50nm away from the home airport, a rec pilot requires an endorsement from a CFI. Something like:

I certify that {First Name, MI, Last Name} has received the required cross-country training of §61.101(c). I have determined that He/She is proficient in cross-country flying of Part 61, Subpart E.

I'm not a CFI but I see no reason why the training for the cross-country part of the curriculum would not include appropriate instruction such that they receive their endorsement as part of the course.

[drseti]

I am a CFI, and I respectfully disagree with the suggestion that two total hours of XC training is sufficient to enable the pilot to plan, analyze weather for, and safely navigate to any airport in the country. My SP candidates get at least 2 hours of dual XC training before they fly around 3 hours of solo XC flights. I for one am highly unlikely to endorse for unlimited XC flying a Rec Pilot candidate who's received significantly less than half that amount of training.

[drseti]

According to FAR 61.101(c)(1), a Rec Pilot blanket XC endorsement requires the XC training specified in Subpart E. Subpart E is the PP section of Part 61, which means, to get the endorsement, the Rec Pilot needs the same XC training a PP gets: 3 hours of XC instruction, 3 hours of training in flight solely by reference to instruments, one XC flight of over 100 nm total distance, 5 hours of solo XC time, and one solo XC flight of 150 nm with full-stop landings at 3 points and one 50 nm segment. There's no way this can all be accomplished in the 2 hours of XC training required for the Rec Pilot certificate! Even if you count the 2 Rec Pilot XC hours, Subpart E requires an additional 9 hours of experience (4 dual, 5 solo) to get the endorsement.

[3Dreaming]

Paul, I don't read the requirements as being a broad as what you are stating. I will break it down later.

[drseti]

I'm anxious to see your take on this, Tom, when you have time. 61.101 clearly states that the XC endorsement requires "ground and flight training from an authorized instructor on the cross-country training requirements of Subpart E". Further, it states that the endorsement "certifies the person has received and been found proficient in the cross-country training requirements of Subpart E". I just quoted the relevant excerpts from Subpart E in my post. I wouldn't feel comfortable signing that endorsement if the pilot hadn't satisfied those requirements.

[3Dreaming]

From 61.101

(c) A person who holds a recreational pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft on a flight that exceeds 50 nautical miles from the departure airport, provided that person has—

(1) Received ground and flight training from an authorized instructor on the cross-country training requirements of subpart E of this part that apply to the aircraft rating held;

Solo flight is not required, only flight training from an authorized flight instructor, so no solo flight is required to meet this requirement.

From §61.109 Aeronautical experience.

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b)(1) of this part, and the training must include at least—

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a single-engine airplane;

(2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine airplane that includes—

(i) One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance; and

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight;

Notice that cross country training is listed as item (1). The 100nm cross country requirement is a night requirement, and listed under (2) for night training. So this training is not required. Instrument training is listed under (3), and separated from the cross country requirement by the night flying requirement. So all I see is the requirement for 3 hours of cross country flight training, and a finding that they are proficient.

To take it even further I think that you could take the training required by 61.99, (a),(1), and lengthen the distance out a little and add an hour of training and meet the requirements with just 1 additional hour of training.

[drseti]

OK, Tom, I agree that the 100 nm flight is a night requirement, thus not applicable to the Rec Pilot XC endorsement. Thanks for pointing that out. Not so sure about the instrument requirement, though. There is a requirement that a SP have instrument training (doesn't say how much) before flying a solo XC in an aircraft with a Vh > 87 knots (100 MPH). Is there not a similar requirement for Rec pilots? I would think so, though I can't find it in the FARs. Thus, I would want to apply that particular Subpart E requirement to Rec Pilots before endorsing them.

[3Dreaming]

The requirement for instrument training for a sport pilot is actually a student pilot requirement 61.91, (e),(12).
For the recreational pilot only 3 hours of solo flight is required, and no solo cross country flight. Because of no solo cross country no instrument training would be required. I am in agreement that they should have some instrument training, even though it is not required.

[drseti]

I am in agreement that they should have some instrument training, even though it is not required.

Since no solo XC requirement exists for the RP (in fact, no XC training at all, if I read the regs correctly), I can see why no instrument training is spelled out. However, when going for the additional training for the XC endorsement, the RP will be earning the same XC privileges enjoyed by a PP. Subpart E spells out the instrument training required for the PP. For this reason, I for one would not sign the endorsement without providing that level of instrument training. You may be right that this is not an FAR requirement - but where in the FARs does it say that I can't go beyond the minimum legal requirements? Of course, if the student doesn't want to be trained to that level of safety, he or she is always free to go to another instructor for the endorsement!

BTW, with regard to the SP instrument requirement, notice that it fails to specify any particular number of hours. Thus, my SP curriculum also goes beyond the requirements of the FAR.

[3Dreaming]

Of course you can always have limits set higher than those required by the regulations. While the regulations for recreational pilot don't specifically call it cross country training I think this requirement meets that description, especially if you stretched the distance out to 50nm. Which I would do if I were training a recreational pilot.

2 hours of flight training en route to an airport that is located more than 25 nautical miles from the airport where the applicant normally trains.

More food for thought.

If a sport pilot does all of his training in a airplane with a Vh of less than 87 knots there is no requirement for any instrument training. There is also no requirement for instrument training when moving to a airplane with a Vh greater than 87 knots. So you can have a sport pilot flying cross country all over the US with no instrument training.

[drseti]

If a sport pilot does all of his training in a airplane with a Vh of less than 87 knots there is no requirement for any instrument training. There is also no requirement for instrument training when moving to a airplane with a Vh greater than 87 knots. So you can have a sport pilot flying cross country all over the US with no instrument training.

True point. I've given a couple of folks the Vh > 87 knot endorsement. Even though it's not required in the FARs, I include instrument training in my curriculum before issuing that endorsement, for exactly that reason.

[3Dreaming]

Back on point. I still think you can do the required training, the additional cross country training, and a little instrument time in 15 required and 12 optional hours of flight instruction needed for the recreational pilot certificate in a simple airplane like a Cessna 150/172 or a Piper Warrior. Add the required 3 hours of solo time and you have a recreational pilot applicant ready for their checkride.

[drseti]

I tend to agree, Tom, although I think I'd prefer to throw in an extra couple of hours for more instrument instruction. So, we're looking at maybe 32 hours total, which is pretty close to what my SP candidates end up with.