Buying your own plane for training

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joey4420
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Re: Buying your own plane for training

Postby joey4420 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:41 pm

Very glad to hear all went fairly well then after all the delays.
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foresterpoole
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Re: Buying your own plane for training

Postby foresterpoole » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:31 pm

Awesome rcpilot, congrats!
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Re: Buying your own plane for training

Postby rcpilot » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:48 am

Well, finally got to do some flying yesterday. Worked on my B,C and D airspace endorsement with my instructor. First we flew to Gabreski airport(KFOK, a class D) and did a "stop and go". We've flown there many times before and done touch and goes. I handle the radios and get a straight in approach to runway 6. That threw me off a bit as I'm not use to making a like 4 mile final so I was a little high and fast so it was a no flaps landing. Then we takeoff and head to Islip(KISP, a class C). We go over what to do. I flew there once before because that's where the avionics shop is and I needed my transponder recert done. I get the ATIS and he has me call approach. I get the transponder code, punch it in and then hear "radar contact". He hands me off to the tower. Of course we're flying there at a busy time(the last time I went there was early in the morning and not much was going on). They direct me to runway 24. I'm number 2 for landing. Of course not my usual pattern so I'm a little high and fast again but get her down and make the turn off they wanted me to. Instructor tells me to call ground for taxi instructions. OK I get them and I'm like WTF, taxi where? He helps me out and reminds me if it's just too much not to be afraid to ask for progressive taxi instructions. They set us up for an intersection takeoff. There's a twin directly across from me holding short as well. After a couple planes land, the twin takes off and we're next. We take off, stay in the pattern. So we're about midfield downwind and they ask me if I can do a short approach. I say no problem. Then they tell me to extend my down wind because there is another plane on final. I see it and they tell me to follow it and I'm number 2. My instructor tells me when to turn in behind it, then they're like can you slow down. So my instructor has me feed in full flaps, we're still a bit out but easily make it well behind the other plane. Ok this time the taxi instructions are a bit easier and we taxi back for a full runway takeoff. We see a plane on final and figure they make us wait till they land. Ah, no. "63MJ cleared for takeoff runway 24 without delay". Geez don't think I've ever pulled on to the runway that fast. Off we go back to Brookhaven. So he signs off my logbook but just for class D, will still need some practice for Islip. Nad we still need to do the trip to NJ and try to get to fly through the JFK airspace.

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Re: Buying your own plane for training

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:09 am

It is not a bad thing that you are going to get training in all 3 airspaces. However I don't think your instructor can limit you to just class D airspace with his sign off. Here is the regulation, but modified slightly by highlighting a few parts in red to make a point.

If you hold a sport pilot certificate and seek privileges to operate a light-sport aircraft in Class B, C, or D airspace, at an airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace, or to, from, through, or at an airport having an operational control tower, you must receive and log ground and flight training. The authorized instructor who provides this training must provide a logbook endorsement that certifies you are proficient in the following aeronautical knowledge areas and areas of operation:

(a) The use of radios, communications, navigation system/facilities, and radar services.

(b) Operations at airports with an operating control tower to include three takeoffs and landings to a full stop, with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern, at an airport with an operating control tower.

(c) Applicable flight rules of part 91 of this chapter for operations in Class B, C, and D airspace and air traffic control clearances.


My take is you can't have the required training to operate in class D airspace legally, without also having the required training to operate in class B and C airspace. I know others will disagree, but if you remove the red highlighted parts from the regulation above what you have left is the required training to operate in class D airspace. Notice in (c) that it says "and" within the airspaces that require training for their flight rules. This means you must have training in all 3, if it was training for just 1 type of airspace it would have said "or". If you put the red highlighted parts back in the training requirements and endorsement remains the same.

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Re: Buying your own plane for training

Postby FastEddieB » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:41 am

Glad to see you're adding to your "experience bucket". It all gets a lot easier with repetition.

But this threw me off:

rcpilot wrote:That threw me off a bit as I'm not use to making a like 4 mile final so I was a little high and fast so it was a no flaps landing.


I don't get that logic. If you were high and fast, the goal should be to slow down and increase your descent angle. That would mean throttling back, slowing to below Vfe, and going to full flaps. That would normally NOT be a no-flap scenario.

Or am I missing something?
Last edited by FastEddieB on Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buying your own plane for training

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:53 pm

eyeflygps wrote:I agree with FastEddieB and disagree with 3Dreaming. We have had this discussion before, but if I train you for Class D but not Class B and/or C, I am going to sign you off for Class D only. I believe that is the intent of the regulation and is what makes sense. For instance, maybe all we did was fly to a Class D airport and made 3 take-offs and landings. You demonstrated your ability to deal with that situation and I sign you off for that. We never even discussed Class B or C. I'm certainly not going to sign you off for something we did not discuss or demonstrate or practice. I don't believe the intent of the regulation is to withhold your sign-off for Class D.


The authorized instructor who provides this training must provide a logbook endorsement that certifies you are proficient in the following aeronautical knowledge areas and areas of operation:

(a) The use of radios, communications, navigation system/facilities, and radar services.

(b) Operations at airports with an operating control tower to include three takeoffs and landings to a full stop, with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern, at an airport with an operating control tower.

(c) Applicable flight rules of part 91 of this chapter for operations in Class B, C, and D airspace and air traffic control clearances.

What part of the regulation do you not understand? You can not sign off for class D airspace without covering a, b, and c including all the items listed in the blue highlighted areas. The regulation does not give you the option.

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Re: Buying your own plane for training

Postby FastEddieB » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:53 pm

This comes up periodically, and my take is still that training for airspace "as appropriate" is implied if not clearly stated.

But to avoid a hijack, best debated in another thread, don't you think?
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Re: Buying your own plane for training

Postby Wm.Ince » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:30 pm

3Dreaming wrote:My take is you can't have the required training to operate in class D airspace legally, without also having the required training to operate in class B and C airspace. I know others will disagree, but if you remove the red highlighted parts from the regulation above what you have left is the required training to operate in class D airspace. Notice in (c) that it says "and" within the airspaces that require training for their flight rules. This means you must have training in all 3, if it was training for just 1 type of airspace it would have said "or". If you put the red highlighted parts back in the training requirements and endorsement remains the same.

In other words, are you interpreting the regulation to mean it is an "all or nothing" proposition?
Is there no room for a limited signoff (installment) from the CFI?
Last edited by Wm.Ince on Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buying your own plane for training

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:57 pm

Wm.Ince wrote:In other words, are you interpreting the regulation to mean it is an "all or nothing" proposition?
Is there no room for a limited signoff (installment) from the CFI?


What I am saying is what the regulation says. I'll break it down.

1. You have to have training in the use of radios, communications, navigation system/facilities, and radar services. This can be either ground training, flight training or a combination of the two.

2. You have to have flight training in the operations at airports with an operating control tower to include three takeoffs and landings to a full stop, with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern, at an airport with an operating control tower.

3. Finally you need to know the applicable flight rules of part 91 of this chapter for operations in Class B, C, and D airspace and air traffic control clearances. this is knowledge based, so it would likely be ground training.

If you have had this training and are proficient in all the items listed you may receive the endorsement. If you have not had all the training, or are not proficient then you may not have the endorsement. I don't see the endorsement as being airspace specific. If you have done the training and received the endorsement, then you can fly in class B, C, or D airspace. If haven't done all the required training then you can't fly in class B, C, or D airspace. Having an instructor sign you off with a limit to only class D airspace would imply that you did not have all the required training to receive the endorsement as spelled out in 61.325 a, b, and c. Also the training requirements can be done in any kind of airspace, as long as the 3 take offs and landings are done at an airport with an operating control tower.

If the FAA had wanted this to be airspace specific I think they would have worded the requirement for the endorsement something like they did in 61.94.
(b) The authorized instructor who provides the training specified in paragraph (a) of this section must provide a logbook endorsement that certifies the student has received that training and is proficient to conduct solo flight in that specific airspace or at that specific airport and in those aeronautical knowledge areas and areas of operation specified in this section.

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Re: Buying your own plane for training

Postby rcpilot » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:36 am

I have to agree with 3Dreaming. I thought it kind of strange that he Ok'd me for Class D. Technically I have met all the requirements for the endorsement. Could I fly through class C and B, yes I believe I can. It appears in practice people seem to avoid the class B around here so it's quite possible that's what I may have to do as well. Could I manage to handle landing at Islip, yes, but I'd prefer a little more "practice" with my instructor. The fact that I'm going to have to fly to Islip at some point means I'll probably do it periodically just to stay sharp. In any case I'm not going to worry about it as I plan to have a couple more sessions with my instructor.

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Re: Buying your own plane for training

Postby 3Dreaming » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:01 am

There certainly is nothing wrong with doing more training than is required by the regulations, and I applaud you for it.
BTW, I'm sorry for the thread hijack.

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Re: Buying your own plane for training

Postby rcpilot » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:50 am

3Dreaming wrote:There certainly is nothing wrong with doing more training than is required by the regulations, and I applaud you for it.
BTW, I'm sorry for the thread hijack.

Not to worry. The purpose of the thread is to help other students with things they might encounter in training and seeing how people interpret the "rules" can go a long way.

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Re: Buying your own plane for training

Postby 3Dreaming » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:55 pm

Here is a thread that covers the airspace endorsement. There is a bunch of information in there.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3875&hilit=airspace+endorsement&start=195

Here is a post from the thread with what the FAA told me about the endorsement.

OK, so I call the AFS-610 (FAA Light Sport Division) to ask about the endorsement. I spoke to two people about this. The First was Edsel Ford. While he is not on the operations side of things, he is a flight instructor. He agreed with me that the sign off for 61.325 covers all three types of airspace. He also said he would check with someone from operations about it and call back if it was different. Well I got a call back. I spoke with the fellow from operations and he also agreed that the way 61.325 is written that the sign off should cover all three types of airspace. However back in the early days of the rule in a DPE meeting the subject came up, and the precedent was set that you could just sign off for one type of airspace like class D. We also talked about the intent of the regulation, the purpose is to bring the Sport Pilot up to the same standards as a private pilot in the use of the controlled airspace. This is why I think the training should cover all three airspaces, because there are no limit on these airspaces for a private pilot. Any way the only way to get a definitive answer would be to ask for a legal interpretation, on the regulation. There is no way I am going to do that.

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Re: Buying your own plane for training

Postby FastEddieB » Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:07 am

After that little side discussion, let me repost my query:

Glad to see you're adding to your "experience bucket". It all gets a lot easier with repetition.

But this threw me off:

rcpilot wrote:That threw me off a bit as I'm not use to making a like 4 mile final so I was a little high and fast so it was a no flaps landing.


I don't get that logic. If you were high and fast, the goal should be to slow down and increase your descent angle. That would mean throttling back, slowing to below Vfe, and going to full flaps. That would normally NOT be a no-flap scenario.

Or am I missing something?
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Re: Buying your own plane for training

Postby Wm.Ince » Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:50 am

rcpilot wrote:That threw me off a bit as I'm not use to making a like 4 mile final so I was a little high and fast so it was a no flaps landing.
FastEddieB wrote:I don't get that logic. If you were high and fast, the goal should be to slow down and increase your descent angle. That would mean throttling back, slowing to below Vfe, and going to full flaps. That would normally NOT be a no-flap scenario.
Or am I missing something?
Put another way:
If he is high and fast, to me, that means he is "steep" and fast. Steep and fast, VFR or IFR, is never a good thing.
Therefore, he should be decreasing the approach angle by increasing his rate of descent?
I would recommend reducing power, adding drag (flaps and/or slip) and increasing rate of descent until a normal approach angle was intercepted. At that point, it becomes a 'normal approach' profile.

Note: If in a situation of being too high, and sufficient altitude is available, a quick way to get back on the desired approach path is just to nose it over (lower the nose or dive) for a short time. It should only be for a short duration, with reduced power, to avoid an unwanted and large airspeed increase.
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